Moose camp stolen.

[Patsfan54]

There seems to be some confusion on where the cache is. We'll see.

You've said your camp and cache are on state land, is that not the case or do you not know whose land it is on?

 

[kasilofchrisn]

I have called some people names, as you have. When I have told the same person over and over that I am on General State Land and he tell me that my cache is illegal because on BLM land other federal lands that it's not legal to..." That guy is a dummy. When a guy says," I know what I think he said..." that is a stupid thing to say.

Nope I never resort to name calling.
That's more you're forte!
Apparently name calling is a sign of low emotional intelligence.
Also apparently also a sign of insecurity and envy.

Name-calling: A Sign of Low Emotional Intelligence

It's easy to be dismissive and judgmental when you don't understand someone else's perspective. But when we do this, it's a sign that our emotional intelligence is lacking.Name-calling and Labeling Are Counterproductive—In Every Possible Way.The act of name-calling or labeling someone (out loud...

www.ei-magazine.com

By the way, I have always tried to talk to you like we were both more that 5 years old and you have come back with insults, foul language and sarcasm. And you spin things around like you are now. Give me a break.

No, I rarely if ever use foul language online.
I don't spin things around.
I just use your own words as you've written them.

You gatta be kidding me, I've been calling you out on it for years.

nope, thats not possible.
Show me one example where I've called you any names!
Unlike you that's not how I conduct myself.
Direct name calling is something I refrain from.
In fact I'd bet money that you can't find one example where I directly called you names!
Keep in mind there is a difference in calling someone a fool vs saying they are behaving/acting like a fool!

Sorry, It's when you put me on ignore that you can't see my words, not when I put you on ignore. I know, I can't see lots of peoples words when I put them on ignore. But, I can see mine. Try it. Maybe this is one of those cases where you are mistaken.

Sorry, I didn't see a bet, you and johnnycake have been on ignore. What bet?

I offered you a bet of one(1) AK PFD or $1,702 if I'm right and Johnnycake put up four (4) AK PFD's to your one(1) that your cache on state land is illegal.
If you're legal as is then we will pay you.
This was offered in multiple posts.
It really seemed to me that you were too chicken to take the bet. That you were not 100% certain you were in the right.
Then again we can't really have an intelligent conversation with you when you don't read 2/3 of our posts!

I Have admitted times I have been wrong. I don't see where you have admitted being wrong ever. When I provide documenting my positions on stuff and you ignore them. Why?

You've never provided evidence documenting me being wrong or proving you right to me personally.
Not that I can recall and I've got a decent memory.
It certainly hasn't happened in this thread.
I've provided email evidence from a DNR employee who said you were wrong and your cache is illegal.
but you refuse to acknowledge that fact!

You guys have advocated the taking of peoples property. Who is going to decide what cash is legal and not legal. Sounds like just a good excuse for people to take stuff. It seems very wrong when people are advocating the stealing of peoples private property. Maybe we'll get answers Monday.

I don't condone theft.
I was raised better than that.
apparently though taking some unpermitted cache to the dump is apparently not stealing.
The DNR would not promote theft.

 

[kasilofchrisn]

You've said your camp and cache are on state land, is that not the case or do you not know whose land it is on?

Honestly, I think this is just a ploy on his part.
We all know what the DNR is going to tell him when he calls them on Monday.
I find it hard to believe after all these posts that Mark doesn't also know it.
They will say exactly what they told me over the phone and in an official email.
I posted this back on post 174.
That a cache on state land is illegal and should be taken to the dump.
A post that should have ended this thread long ago had Mark chose to read it.
But, I'm guessing he is going to say it wasn't state land after all to save face or something like that.
To make people believe he wasn't wrong after all.
Either that or maybe reading maps and using a GPS are too difficult for him?
Why else wouldn't he know the land ownership where his illegal cache is?

 

[kasilofchrisn]

Thank you for doing that, I will talk to her, Monday. Thanks for clarifying. People on here have been calling our cache trash from day one on this thread. You know, she's just another person with an opinion. I will try to get her and the rest together so they can give people the same answer. It may be that Heather has an incorrect location, She says, near Fairbanks, we are not near Fairbanks by my definition. Location is key. We'll get to the bottom of this.

State land is state land.
Location on planet earth doesn't matter.
If it belongs to the state of Alaska and you don't have a permit it is illegal.
I told her it was in the Fairbanks area on state land. The key bing "state land"

 

[johnnycake]

Honestly, I think this is just a ploy on his part.
We all know what the DNR is going to tell him when he calls them on Monday.
I find it hard to believe after all these posts that Mark doesn't also know it.
They will say exactly what they told me over the phone and in an official email.
I posted this back on post 174.
That a cache on state land is illegal and should be taken to the dump.
A post that should have ended this thread long ago had Mark chose to read it.
But, I'm guessing he is going to say it wasn't state land after all to save face or something like that.
To make people believe he wasn't wrong after all.
Either that or maybe reading maps and using a GPS are too difficult for him?
Why else wouldn't he know the land ownership where his illegal cache is?

Agreed. And a main reason I brought up the Fed regs for BLM and USFS lands way back a bunch of pages ago was to close off those escape excuses for Mark.

 

[kasilofchrisn]

Agreed. And a main reason I brought up the Fed regs for BLM and USFS lands way back a bunch of pages ago was to close off those escape excuses for Mark.

For me the reason I brought them up was because I have legal rights to the minerals on my federal mining claims.
And yet, I still don't have rights to leave a cache or a camp on my claim.
Mark has no legal rights to the ground where his cache sits in any way shape or form.
Either way that's no excuse for the name calling and insults.
When someone starts insulting people and name calling, that's what drags the forum down and drives members away.
It woukd be fun to see a video of Mark when he gets the news that we already know to be the truth!

 

[johnnycake]

For me the reason I brought them up was because I have legal rights to the minerals on my federal mining claims.
And yet, I still don't have rights to leave a cache or a camp on my claim.
Mark has no legal rights to the ground where his cache sits in any way shape or form.
Either way that's no excuse for the name calling and insults.
When someone starts insulting people and name calling, that's what drags the forum down and drives members away.
It woukd be fun to see a video of Mark when he gets the news that we already know to be the truth!

I'm pretty sure he'll just lie again and try to claim he was told he was right.

 

[gunner]

Johnnycakes. -From reading your comments on this thread, I am not surprised to find that you are an attorney.

 

[kasilofchrisn]

Agreed. And a main reason I brought up the Fed regs for BLM and USFS lands way back a bunch of pages ago was to close off those escape excuses for Mark.

For me the reason I brought them up was because I have legal rights to the minerals on my federal mining claims.
And yet, I still don't have rights to leave a cache or a camp on my claim.
It's not about what some people mistakenly claim as "precedent"( the state of Alaska calls it "customary and traditional use")!
That doesn't apply in this case.
Mark has no legal rights to the ground where his cache sits in any way shape or form.
Either way that's no excuse for the name calling and insults.
When People start insulting others and calling names It's no surprise that this forum is going down hill.
That IMHO is the worst thing about these forums and why I'll not stoop to those levels!

 

[gunner]

I posted before I had nothing of value to add to this thread, so I was done. Yet.... here I go again.
It seems from the evidence provided by some of the posters that caches, cabins, tent frames etc. can not be in place on state lands, and in all likelihood most federal lands in excess of 14 days. I have previously admitted that I have established and used such structures repeatedly for decades on both state and federal land. I had no idea this was illegal, and am very surprised that in my many inspections by both state and federal Leo, this was never brought up. Nevertheless, it appears, at least according to kasilof and others, that I was breaking the law.
There has been a lot of mudslinging on this thread, and I have been a part of it. I apologize for that. That being said, I certainly understand the op's and the posters using the words 'stupid' and "liar".
Passions run high when dealing with something that one is passionate about.
Either way, I value the comments on both sides of this issue. Hopefully, we will all learn something from this, respect others opinions, and not lose any forum members.

 

[mark knapp]

OK, I just got off of the phone with lots of different people that include AJ at the AKDNR, AST, and, ADF&G. And I called Heather at SC, DNR, she has not returned my call.

AJ at the northern office of DNR had been contacted by Heather and expected my call. She had sent AJ copies of the correspondence between Heather and Chris from AOF. He seemed well aware of the situation.

AJ said that, it is not legal to leave a cache on State land over 14 days. He also said that the OTC was new, only a couple of years old. I was given the wrong information by the State Troopers about caches and I passed it along. That may have been a mistake. Everyone on here has made mistakes and if you try to say you haven't, you are lying.

I am a human and I make mistakes. The biggest mistake I made was gloating too much and I shouldn't have. I'm sorry about that. If you accused me of lying you were wrong. If you accused me of knowingly breaking the law, you were wrong. If you accused me of guiding without a lisence, you were wrong.

AJ also told me that, Chris, on the forum may be spreading misinformation about caches in that, a private citizen is not authorized to go into the woods and take things found there.

AJ has sent me all of the information about caches and applications. He is also going to send me information about how non-compliant caches are treated. Basically, it is found by the dept., in one way or another. Having been reported seems most likely. Next, they try to find out who's it is and contact them for removal or to be brought into compliance. If not removed or brought into compliance, the dept. may remove it. Private citizens do not know the procedure for identifying caches that are out of compliance, IE. not permitted, in one place over 14 days, who's land it is ETC.

I have a copy of the law authorizing the permit and it's enforcement. Nowhere is removal by private citizens authorized or given.

As of now, I am not in any way associated with the cache. I have no gear there and will not use any gear that is cached there (not that I owe anyone here anything), if any (remember, all the gear was stolen, and they trashed up the place). I will inform all of the other people involved with the cache that it will have to be removed or be permitted.

I have contacted the troopers and as of my speaking to them, they consider caches legal and do not want to be involved.

I called AKF&G and asked about rigid tree stands on state land. They are not specifically legal and technically they are illegal according to the perminent structure laws, if they are up for more than 14 days. In the northern office they concider it a non-issue and pretty much don't care.

I think, If you don't like rigid hunting stands that stay up all year, tear them down if you want. But remeber this, A hunter that has to build a stand every year is harder on the environment than if he just has to build it once. In that frame of mind, a hunter that only has to bring his gear in once is a lot easier on the environment than a guy that has to make multiple trips every year to bring the same gear out and back in.

As for trolls, foul language, sarcasm, calling of names and insults. I always start out treating people with respect and kindness In each thread. If you treat me with respect and talk nice, I will do the same with you. If you do not, you will get back what you dish out. That's it, don't be surprised or appalled if and when I do.

At the start of this, I said we had some gear stolen. No one here knew about a permit but a lot of people automatically rationalized the theft due to "An illegal cache". Nobody knew the legalities but the dog piling started and trolls popped up, ETC.

It's wrong to have a cache on state land for over 14 days, without a proper permit. I did learn that from this thread.

It is not legal, right or, in my opinion, acceptible for a private indevidual to take someones propery. If you think someone is doing something illegal, turn them in. You are not qualified to asertain legality, or proper enforcment, IMO, you certainly are not entitled to property that does not belong to you.

I am sorry if anyone was treated poorly by me without do cause. If you among the several that deserve it, tough, don't talk to me. I will be the judge. I belong to lots of other forums and this is the only one where trolling, sarcasm and insults happen. If it was me causing it, wouldn't I be causing it on all of the other forums too. Since this is the only place I find that sort of thing, it must be the people that I only find here, that do it.

Now, I am done. It's over.

 

[stillapa12drvr]

"A private citizen is not authorized to go into the woods and take things found there." Mentioned way back in post #28.

Self-help (in the potential example) would amount (at a minimum) to either trespass to chattels or conversion; there would never be enough certainty, but "theft" would also be in the greater bell curve of what could be asserted. Wouldn't recommend the self-help option. If there's a cache that one thinks is illegal, take some date / time / location stamped pictures and turn them in to AST, AWT, DNR, or local land managers.

 

[kasilofchrisn]

OK, I just got off of the phone with lots of different people to include AJ at the AKDNR, AST, and, ADF&G. And I called Heather at SC, DNR, she has not returned my call.

AJ at the northern office of DNR said that, it is not legal to leave a cache on State land over 14 day. He had been contacted by Heather and expected my call. She had sent AJ copies of the correspondence between Heather and Chris from AOF. He seemed well aware of the situation.

So your cache was and is illegal!
Glad we finally cleared that up!
Though I actually posted the same stuff a few pages and a few days ago.

He also told me that, Chris, on the forum may be spreading misinformation about caches in that, A private citizen is not authorized to go into the woods and take things found there.

Here's where you're reading comprehension once again fails you.
what I said was that "Heather told me the best thing to do is pick it up and take it to the dump"!
Her words not mine!

More to come.

I'm not sure what more we need?
The question of Caches has been answered.
Mark Knapps cache was and remains illegal.
All caches are illegal on state land without the $240 over the counter storage permit.
Good for 5 years and cost $240 per year to keep it

BTW Mark thank you for finally admitting you were wrong and that your cache was illegal.
I think we can now put this thread to rest.

 

[draugr]

I take back everything I said about your being mature. You fooled me. Come get your knife, don't shake my hand. Bring your knife to someone else. I caught it before we got a chance to fix it, if your initials are H.E. That way, you and I don't need to suffer with each other any more. One more thing, grow up.

Sorry for the absence, just got back from hunting. I’ll grab it tomorrow

 

[Patsfan54]

No one here knew about a permit but a lot of people automatically rationalized the theft due to "An illegal cache". Nobody knew the legalities but the dog piling started and trolls popped up, ETC.

The third post in this thread questions the legality of caching gear on state land, that questioning is directly what led to the conversation about permitting. The 10th post mentions permitting, and many, many, many more after that...while you might consider that dog piling and trolling most were trying to inform you and to protect our shared public land from people who abuse it. Giben the numerous comments about permitting, it flies in the face of reality to say that "No one here knew about a permit". I haven't seen anyone rationalize the theft of an illegal cache (no quotes required, as it is and was an illegal cache). To further claim that "Nobody knew the legalities" further flies in the face of reality when there are post after post with direct quotes of those legalities, the fact that you ignore them is part of the problem.

It's wrong to have a cache on state land for over 14 days, without a proper permit. I did learn that from this thread.

That's true, and something that many people here tried to tell you. Unfortunately you aren't the only one who didn't know that, hopefully others have learned that as well.

 

[kwackkillncrew]

its over, the horse is dead, the admin should lock the thread.

 

[4merguide]

"A mistake that makes you humble is better than an achievement that makes you arrogant."

And from where I sit it sure looked like there were quite a few that believed they were creating some kind of great achievement.

 

[kasilofchrisn]

"A mistake that makes you humble is better than an achievement that makes you arrogant."

And from where I sit it sure looked like there were quite a few that believed they were creating some kind of great achievement.

This thread should have ended days ago and pages ago.
It easily could have if not for the one antagonist who was bound and determined to prove he was right despite overwhelming evidence from multiple members, even phone call transcripts and emails from DNR employees.
Evidence provided that the antagonist chose for whatever reason not to read, instead choosing to continue to debate.
Only to finally realize and admit that the factual evidence posted pages ago and days ago was indeed accurate.
If this thread had died 5 or so pages ago when the antagonist called for it after a supposed call to AST then clearly false information and an illegal cache would still remain.
Now we all know the factual truth!
I don't suppose I even need to mention the direct name calling and insults that only the antagonist threw out there in this thread?
I tried to end this thread days ago and pages ago by posting factual information I got by calling the official government authorities at the DNR.
If only it hadn't fallen on deaf ears.........

 

[4merguide]

This thread should have ended days ago and pages ago.
It easily could have if not for the one antagonist who was bound and determined to prove he was right despite overwhelming evidence from multiple members, even phone call transcripts and emails from DNR employees.
Evidence provided that the antagonist chose for whatever reason not to read, instead choosing to continue to debate.
Only to finally realize and admit that the factual evidence posted pages ago and days ago was indeed accurate.
If this thread had died 5 or so pages ago when the antagonist called for it after a supposed call to AST then clearly false information and an illegal cache would still remain.
Now we all know the factual truth!
I don't suppose I even need to mention the direct name calling and insults that only the antagonist threw out there in this thread?
I tried to end this thread days ago and pages ago by posting factual information I got by calling the official government authorities at the DNR.
If only it hadn't fallen on deaf ears.........

I know what went on during this thread, as I read every single post. Not only do I stand by what I said, it is exactly why I said it.

 

[mark knapp]

This thread should have ended days ago and pages ago.
It easily could have if not for the one antagonist who was bound and determined to prove he was right despite overwhelming evidence from multiple members, even phone call transcripts and emails from DNR employees.
Evidence provided that the antagonist chose for whatever reason not to read, instead choosing to continue to debate.
Only to finally realize and admit that the factual evidence posted pages ago and days ago was indeed accurate.
If this thread had died 5 or so pages ago when the antagonist called for it after a supposed call to AST then clearly false information and an illegal cache would still remain.
Now we all know the factual truth!
I don't suppose I even need to mention the direct name calling and insults that only the antagonist threw out there in this thread?
I tried to end this thread days ago and pages ago by posting factual information I got by calling the official government authorities at the DNR.
If only it hadn't fallen on deaf ears.........

Oh My god, shut up.