The Ambler Road

[kasilofchrisn]

There is nothing any of us can do. Roads will be built and people will use them. I, for one are for roads to lands in Alaska that is not already protected. Why, because those areas are already protected.

We keep making more people and if we are going to make more people, those people are going to need places to live, work and play.

If we keep making more people but don't open up access to land for them to live, work and play, (land that has already been set aside for those things and not preservation in this case) we are all going to be splitting up the places that we already have with more people. Our individual slices of the pie all become smaller, society becomes poorer as a whole, more people are crowded into what's available.

Originally, the haul road was meant for only pipeline access. Now it's used for all kinds of great things. Mostly, it allows us to spread out a little. We have more access to more places to live, work and play, and it's affordable.

I have noticed some of the people that are against the Ambler road, and roads like it, already live in, or access those places in other ways and are trying to limit access by other people. I don't see anything wrong with that, it's human nature.

Since there have been human beings, we have been spreading out. That's a fact.

You are not going to stop it. IMO.

Surprisingly, I have to say I agree with you on this one Mark.
I for one do not own a team of pack horses that can get me back into these remote areas.
Putting a road like this through it opens up so many points of access for so many Alaskans.
After the first mile or two, there isn't really anybody who's going to be packing a moose out of any further than that.
Sure you could always get flown into one of these rivers and float your way out but, that isn't cheap either.
I'm not saying we need all kinds of spurs or side roads and/or that we should allow Atvs etc.
But having a main access road up that way opens up so many possibilities for hunting and fishing.
How many people come to Alaska each year seeking peace and solitude only to find themselves combat fishing on the Kenai or jam pack in a stuffy crowded bus going up the road through Denali?
I think we've all had those days where we went out thinking we would be in an area by ourselves only to run into other people out in the wilderness.
A few more roads could certainly help us spread out in Alaska without have to pack a moose or caribou 20 miles on our backs!

 

[mark knapp]

Surprisingly, I have to say I agree with you on this one Mark.
I for one do not own a team of pack horses that can get me back into these remote areas.
Putting a road like this through it opens up so many points of access for so many Alaskans.
After the first mile or two, there isn't really anybody who's going to be packing a moose out of any further than that.
Sure you could always get flown into one of these rivers and float your way out but, that isn't cheap either.
I'm not saying we need all kinds of spurs or side roads and/or that we should allow Atvs etc.
But having a main access road up that way opens up so many possibilities for hunting and fishing.
How many people come to Alaska each year seeking peace and solitude only to find themselves combat fishing on the Kenai or jam pack in a stuffy crowded bus going up the road through Denali?
I think we've all had those days where we went out thinking we would be in an area by ourselves only to run into other people out in the wilderness.
A few more roads could certainly help us spread out in Alaska without have to pack a moose or caribou 20 miles on our backs!

I don't think it's so surprising that we agree sometimes.

I find that most people that disagree all the time do it because of who is saying something instead of what is being said.

If more people would take time to read what is being said instead of who is saying it, we would all agree more. Or at least consider what the other guy has to say.

'Nice day.

 

[MacGyver]

Surprisingly, I have to say I agree with you on this one Mark.
I for one do not own a team of pack horses that can get me back into these remote areas.
Putting a road like this through it opens up so many points of access for so many Alaskans.
After the first mile or two, there isn't really anybody who's going to be packing a moose out of any further than that.
Sure you could always get flown into one of these rivers and float your way out but, that isn't cheap either.
I'm not saying we need all kinds of spurs or side roads and/or that we should allow Atvs etc.
But having a main access road up that way opens up so many possibilities for hunting and fishing.
How many people come to Alaska each year seeking peace and solitude only to find themselves combat fishing on the Kenai or jam pack in a stuffy crowded bus going up the road through Denali?
I think we've all had those days where we went out thinking we would be in an area by ourselves only to run into other people out in the wilderness.
A few more roads could certainly help us spread out in Alaska without have to pack a moose or caribou 20 miles on our backs!

 

[MacGyver]

Don’t take this as anti-roads because it is not, nor am I. You don’t need to drive hundreds of miles to hunt moose. There are lots of moose within walking distance of the roads around your town. If you know where to look.

 

[4merguide]

Surprisingly, I have to say I agree with you on this one Mark.
I for one do not own a team of pack horses that can get me back into these remote areas.
Putting a road like this through it opens up so many points of access for so many Alaskans.
After the first mile or two, there isn't really anybody who's going to be packing a moose out of any further than that.
Sure you could always get flown into one of these rivers and float your way out but, that isn't cheap either.
I'm not saying we need all kinds of spurs or side roads and/or that we should allow Atvs etc.
But having a main access road up that way opens up so many possibilities for hunting and fishing.
How many people come to Alaska each year seeking peace and solitude only to find themselves combat fishing on the Kenai or jam pack in a stuffy crowded bus going up the road through Denali?
I think we've all had those days where we went out thinking we would be in an area by ourselves only to run into other people out in the wilderness.
A few more roads could certainly help us spread out in Alaska without have to pack a moose or caribou 20 miles on our backs!

I would agree that more access to some areas in Alaska would be pretty nice. But in this case there's really no way of knowing if this road would ever become public.

 

[mark knapp]

I would agree that more access to some areas in Alaska would be pretty nice. But in this case there's really no way of knowing if this road would ever become public.

It will, it's inevitable. If public funds are used to maintain the road (and they will be), it will be for public use.

 

[kasilofchrisn]

Don’t take this as anti-roads because it is not, nor am I. You don’t need to drive hundreds of miles to hunt moose. There are lots of moose within walking distance of the roads around your town. If you know where to look.

Sure, there's places to hunt moose, but there are very few places on the Kenai Peninsula within walking distance of a road where you don't run into other hunters.
Lots of moose? Absolutely! Legal moose? Not so much.
A road like this would definetly open up more moose hunting opportunities. And quite possibly provide more legal moose for Alaskan residents.
And then there's caribou. So many areas no longer have an open caribou seasons.
To open up more caribou country with just one main road would really give us lots of opportunities.
Then there's fishing and recreational/small scale gold mining as well.
Imagine not having to fly out to Kotzebue just to catch a sheefish!
There's fishing around Anchorage yet so many Anchorage residents drive to the Peninsula to fish. Why? More opportunities, different opportunities, the list goes on and on!

 

[kasilofchrisn]

I don't think it's so surprising that we agree sometimes.

I find that most people that disagree all the time do it because of who is saying something instead of what is being said.

If more people would take time to read what is being said instead of who is saying it, we would all agree more. Or at least consider what the other guy has to say.

'Nice day.

No, it's no surprise that we agree sometimes. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
But I have never once disagreed with you just for being Mark Knapp.
And I do read everything you say before responding.
It's just oftentimes I find that you are IMHO wrong. Sometimes it takes several pages and a week or two of posting to prove you legally wrong,, but we did it!
Other times I think you're talking out your arse, giving us double talk, or misrepresenting things.
So I don't think we all need to agree more at all. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.
But, overall I don't usually disagree with you Just because it's you talking.
I disagree with you for a myriad of legitimate reasons. Some of which are definetly related to the way you talk and/or conduct yourself.
But hey at least we agree on this one!

 

[kasilofchrisn]

For those who've used it think about all the opportunities Swanson River road has given us!
Access to the lakes, hunting areas, the canoe route, berry picking, etc.
For a road that was originally built for oil development.
The Ambler road would open up so many more of those same types of opportunities!

 

[Chez]

It will, it's inevitable. If public funds are used to maintain the road (and they will be), it will be for public use.

It is also inevitable that the public will show up, use the area and abuse the area - at that time someone will suggest building another road to get away from all the trashy people.

Kenai and Kasilof beaches are absolutely trashed every dip-net season, Swanson River road has been going down hill for the past 9 years (at least) since more people learn about it, The new road they are building around Cooper Landing will be great for a few years but it won't be long before it gets trashed too. The list is never ending... Heck why not build roads to your favorite goat hot spot, or berry patch or moose honey hole??

Granted I really wish I was in shape to do the long, heavy hikes or afford to fly out to any remote place at will but that does not justify building roads to those places.

 

[mark knapp]

No, it's no surprise that we agree sometimes. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
But I have never once disagreed with you just for being Mark Knapp.
And I do read everything you say before responding.
It's just oftentimes I find that you are IMHO wrong. Sometimes it takes several pages and a week or two of posting to prove you legally wrong,, but we did it!
Other times I think you're talking out your arse, giving us double talk, or misrepresenting things.
So I don't think we all need to agree more at all. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.
But, overall I don't usually disagree with you Just because it's you talking.
I disagree with you for a myriad of legitimate reasons. Some of which are definetly related to the way you talk and/or conduct yourself.
But hey at least we agree on this one!

I was not talking about you, just in general. You and I have sometimes agreed and not agreed on the merits, not personalities. That's what I'd like to do. But in case you you are still not sure. reread what you just wrote and tell me if most of it wasn't written that way just because of who you were talking to.

You and I can disagree without it being a huge problem. I disagree with most of what you wrote above, so what.

It seems to me, you are picking a fight not me. Are you really scolding me on how I talk and conduct myself? What business is it of yours?

I'm not interested in rehashing year-old threads with you. I was quite nice when I answered your post to me in this thread. Can't we just do that?

 

[mark knapp]

All roads, eventually end up being used by the public for all of the things we use them for. Sometimes, they are over-used in the eyes of some of us.

The more roads we have, the more we can spread out. For every new road, there will be fewer people on other roads. The less crowded we will all be.

 

[knotagain]

Not much discussion here regarding impacts ! Little to no discussion about the purpose of this road.

"The proposed road would cut through and destroy more than 1,400 acres of wetlands and cross nearly 3,000 streams. But the greatest risk this road poses is its possibility to develop multiple open pit copper mines, threatening fisheries of the Kobuk and Koyukuk rivers and other traditional subsistence resources that locals depend upon.

At risk is not a mere road, but a massive industrial corridor that would threaten North America’s largest protected and roadless region, as well as the food security and clean water of Alaska Native Tribes. It would cut through Gates of the Arctic National Preserve, across sheefish and salmon spawning habitats, and bisect the migration of one of the greatest caribou herds left on Earth." (Wilderness League)

Also opposed by Backcountry Hunters and Anglers and quite a number of indigenous orgs. conservation groups, Fairbanks communities already dealing with huge haul traffic, plus folks opposed to our costs to maintaining public roads for private ore hauls... And also the processed ore may be hauled to Anchorage port for shipping.

"The Ambler Industrial Road—a proposed 211-mile industrial private corridor through the Brooks Range—would fragment critical wildlife habitat and undermine hunting, fishing, and subsistence opportunities. These developments mark a renewed effort to prioritize industrial access over conservation and public use on some of Alaska’s most remote and valued public lands." (AKBH&A)

 

[mark knapp]

Not much discussion here regarding impacts ! Little to no discussion about the purpose of this road.

"The proposed road would cut through and destroy more than 1,400 acres of wetlands and cross nearly 3,000 streams. But the greatest risk this road poses is its possibility to develop multiple open pit copper mines, threatening fisheries of the Kobuk and Koyukuk rivers and other traditional subsistence resources that locals depend upon.

At risk is not a mere road, but a massive industrial corridor that would threaten North America’s largest protected and roadless region, as well as the food security and clean water of Alaska Native Tribes. It would cut through Gates of the Arctic National Preserve, across sheefish and salmon spawning habitats, and bisect the migration of one of the greatest caribou herds left on Earth." (Wilderness League)

Also opposed by Backcountry Hunters and Anglers and quite a number of indigenous orgs. conservation groups, Fairbanks communities already dealing with huge haul traffic, plus folks opposed to our costs to maintaining public roads for private ore hauls... And also the processed ore may be hauled to Anchorage port for shipping.

"The Ambler Industrial Road—a proposed 211-mile industrial private corridor through the Brooks Range—would fragment critical wildlife habitat and undermine hunting, fishing, and subsistence opportunities. These developments mark a renewed effort to prioritize industrial access over conservation and public use on some of Alaska’s most remote and valued public lands." (AKBH&A)

It sounds like a lot of doom and gloom to me. Exaggerations and blown out of perspective projections. Excuses. Of course, you can spin it any way you want but I can't think of any similar projections like those above that turned out to be true.

The roads to any other mine and/or oil patch had similar objections and, it seems to me, things are fine.

I understand local people don't want new people around. There's no getting around it. Public land is public land. As soon as it's economically viable, for what ever reason, the public is going to go there.

Isn't it just a little bit selfish for one small sub-section of the public to say "We are using this land, and that's fine, but no one else can"

IMHO

 

[kasilofchrisn]

I was not talking about you, just in general. You and I have sometimes agreed and not agreed on the merits, not personalities. That's what I'd like to do. But in case you you are still not sure. reread what you just wrote and tell me if most of it wasn't written that way just because of who you were talking to.

You and I can disagree without it being a huge problem. I disagree with most of what you wrote above, so what.

It seems to me, you are picking a fight not me. Are you really scolding me on how I talk and conduct myself? What business is it of yours?

I'm not interested in rehashing year-old threads with you. I was quite nice when I answered your post to me in this thread. Can't we just do that?

With me it's always agreement or disagreement based on the merits of what is written. We just tend to disagree a lot that's all.
I could reread it all day and not see it any different!
I'm not into picking fights either. I'm not sure why you think that?
Nor am I scolding you on how you talk or conduct yourself. I'm merely pointing out that your tendency for double talk and the way you conduct yourself here are often times one of the reasons I disagree with you so much!
I'm well known for getting along with people at work and other places where I need to.
But, here and/or in my personal life I can call a spade a spade when I see it.
I don't need rehash old threads either but, it does effect how I see and/or react to people later on.
How could it not?
To be honest I'm not looking to be your friend.
I've made quite a few friends via this forum over the years. But I also understand that not everyone can get along and be friends,
some of just differ too much in our beliefs and who we are!
Bit, I do support some further development in Alaska and I see this road as a good thing for Alaska and Alaskans!

 

[kasilofchrisn]

Sometimes I wonder how many people who opposed the trans Alaskan pipeline And the development of the Arctic oilfields are still cashing their PFD checks?
Or maybe they tear them up in protest?
Red dog mine Employees a lot of Alaskans. I used to be one of them.
It Is situated on native land and cross's cape Kruesestern national monument.
But I don't hear people protesting that one!
Yet, it's lifespan is ending and it's Employees will be let go soon enough.
With the Cost of copper these days, I would guess it's a necessary and valuable commodity In the world.
And the jobs that come with building such a road and opening a mine certainly couldn't hurt Alaska's economy!

 

[stillapa12drvr]

"Isn't it just a little bit selfish for one small sub-section of the public to say "We are using this land, and that's fine, but no one else can""

Of course it's selfish, but that's a time-honored tradition in Alaska. The current version(s) of it seem to focus on the Ambler Road and the West Susitna Access road...but prior versions (depending how far back one wants to go) included opposition to the road to Kennecott/McCarthy, the Haul Road, the Parks Highway, even the railroad to Fairbanks. I seem to recall stories (the actual events being well before my time) of folks bellyaching about the Sterling Highway and the Denali Highway.

As an example of what often seems to be the paradigm, the Pipeline and Haul Road were loudly decried by a then- very prominent Alaskan as anticipated to be destructive of (primarily) the animals in the region. However, this opponent was more than happy to be paid for assisting exploration efforts and, ultimately, established a multi-generational enterprise still working in the oil patch today.

There may be various arguments for or against the Ambler road but there's a very significant amount of selfish protectionism in the arguments against.

All of course IMNSHO.

 

[Chez]

All roads, eventually end up being used by the public for all of the things we use them for. Sometimes, they are over-used in the eyes of some of us.

The more roads we have, the more we can spread out. For every new road, there will be fewer people on other roads. The less crowded we will all be.

It would be great if we could prevent people from having babies, moving here and taking vacations here but that will never happen...

 

[MacGyver]

Sure, there's places to hunt moose, but there are very few places on the Kenai Peninsula within walking distance of a road where you don't run into other hunters.
Lots of moose? Absolutely! Legal moose? Not so much.

What you said does make any sense to me. Talking to friends that live on the Kenai Peninsula. A couple of years ago the wife of a friend took a Legal bull moose on the way, to get her hair done. Other friends get their animals going to work or coming home.
I’m not saying it as easy as I’m making it sound, or it not a lot of work, or sitting in front of a TV/computer, or making excuses, why there are no moose.

 

[kasilofchrisn]

What you said does make any sense to me. Talking to friends that live on the Kenai Peninsula. A couple of years ago the wife of a friend took a Legal bull moose on the way, to get her hair done. Other friends get their animals going to work or coming home.
I’m not saying it as easy as I’m making it sound, or it not a lot of work, or sitting in front of a TV/computer, or making excuses, why there are no moose.

On the Kenai Peninsula IIRC the harvest rate for moose on a good year is 20%.
Yes, people harvest moose here.
But, the majority of my friends who shot moose last year went elsewhere. One boated the yukon and another did a flyout hunt.
There just aren't legal bulls everywhere down here.
Especially given we are spike, 50", and/or 3 browtine.
I live here and hunt here. The majority of my friends hunt here. I know a bit about it.
We are not all shooting moose as we travel to the hair dressers or coming home from work.

Moose harvest rates on the Kenai Peninsula vary depending on the specific Game Management Unit (GMU) and year.
Here's a breakdown of recent harvest rates:

• Unit 15A: Recent harvests are around 40-50 bulls per year. Harvests in this unit have declined from historic highs due to factors like habitat degradation and more restrictive hunting regulations.
• Unit 15B: Recent harvests are about 20-30 bulls annually. Moose density in this area seems to be increasing, which could lead to higher harvests in the future, though accessibility remains a factor.
• Unit 15C: This unit sees the majority of moose harvest on the Kenai Peninsula, with a 5-year average of around 250 moose. This is due to its more accessible terrain and the network of roads.

The exact number of hunters on the Kenai Peninsula each year varies, but it has been recorded as high as 2,749 in 2010-2011. A report from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (.gov) notes that in the past, the local population hunted about 450 moose annually, with a high percentage (90%) being cows. However, more recent data from the Peninsula Clarion indicates a decline in the number of moose hunters, with 1,769 reported in 2014-2015.