Why Community Harvest ("slaughter") Permits must go!

gogoalie

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hehehe...

hehehe...

if I am in the same boat as Mr. Manning...GOD HELP US ALL! ;) :p
 

Alaska_Lanche

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And denying all others annual hunting, and only a 4-year lottery is a joke: 50,000 applicants apply for 300 Nelchina caribou lottery permits means the vast majority of the 50,000 applicants will NEVER receive a permit in their life time!

Ok Alaskasourdough, I've asked this on another forum where exactly does it state the EACH "village" gets the 100 moose and 300 caribou quota. It is my understanding that the quota discussed is to be split among the 8 villages.
Perhaps you have more info which would be appreiciated. All I have read is from the not so reliable ADN:

Under the new rules, the Ahtna villages will be able to bag up to 300 caribou and 100 moose -- which is roughly twice as many animals as hunters in those villages currently take, said Fish and Game spokesman Bruce Bartley. This year, an estimated 600 to 700 additional moose and at least 700 caribou would be available for other hunters.


Based on the info stated above and what 5 mins of using the ADF&G search can find, I came up with this. 2500 caribou permits alone given out last year. 700 additional permits would make it 3200 caribou permits. 150 moose permits were given out for TM300 last year. Additional 600 permits would take that number to 750. Even if they took the Native cut off the top of these numbers, which is not how I read it but rather they are going to award an additional 300 caribou and 100 moose making it 3500 caribou permits and 1050 moose permits total, we would still be left with 2900 caribou permits and 650 moose permits. Both totals which would be more permits allotted than in years past. So 2900 caribou permits for 7380(number of TC566 applicants last year) applicants would easily cover 1 person every 4 years that currently applies.

Furthermore based on what was stated above that 300 caribou permits and 100 moose permits is about twice the number of what the villages currently take. Well again a quick search on ADF&G webiste (great website for finding number on number of permits and applicantswhich I might recommend prior just throwing some scary numbers up :D ) if you add up all the moose & caribou Tier II winners from each of the 8 villages from last year it would appear that these villages are only currently taking roughly 150 bou and 50 moose. Which further leads me to believe that the 300 bou permits and 100 moose permits is not on a per village bases. But I have been wrong before and if you can show me I would be glad to see this info.

So saying only 300 permits will be left over for the rest of us is simple NOT true. But it does seem like a good way to drum up support for your cause, never let facts get in the way of a good story right?? :D

Also 50,000 people applying for the Nelchina herd. Man that is impressive. The Delta bison hunts don't even get near that. It looks like last year only 7380 people applied for TC 566 but yeah it does make your claim sound more horrifying if 50K were to apply. But a little research quickly proves that isn't the case.

Do I think the new proposal is the right way to go about it? No way not at all. It is just as screwed up as Tier II. But until some legislative miracle happens and the Tier II status is dropped from these hunts we will have to put of with a messed up system one way or another. And if I had to pick then yeah sure give those 8 villages their permits and atleast let me have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a permit rather than a 0 chance until I have 50 plus years in Alaska.

I can't support either side, but if what you are fighting for you feel is more right than what is currently stated then go for it. I would like to know where you get your numbers and facts from though.

Thanks
 

Brian M

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Alaska_Lanche - I took the "700 additional caribou" to mean at least 700 after the 300 were allocated to the villages, for a grand total of at least 1,000 - not 700 more than last year. Regardless, that's still a lot more than Sourdough is posting here. His 50,000 applicants and 300 permits are not based in any numbers that I have seen, nor any that would be concievable under the system that has been adopted. I also haven't seen the mention of "one every four years", but that may be something I've just missed. What I would anticipate would be something along the lines of 7-10,000 applicants for 1,500-2,500 permits. Not great odds for those who always get a Tier II tag, but a great improvment for most. I don't like the precendent that village harvest quotas set, but I sure wish we could fight against it with facts and defensible statistics instead of made up numbers and innuendo.
 

DEDWUF

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I don't know much, but possibly a little, so anything I put here is not 'set in concrete.

As far as Moose go, there will be drawing for 3, maybe 4 'remote area's', permits will probably be 50 permits per area, for this year. So we're looking at possibly 150-200 drawing permits total, this doesn't include the 'community harvest permits'. I'm pretty sure one area will be near/or including the Alphabet hills off the Denali hwy. Another might be in the Chistitina area. The other 1 or possibly 2, I have no clue. Could be remote enough, fly-in might be necessary.

The only thing I know about Caribou, is there hasn't been much for 'counts' the past couple of years. I would guess the Bio's will do a spring count to get a estimate of what the 'drawing' numbers will be.

And no telling what might occur with the 'lawsuit' proceeding.
 

Alaska_Lanche

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Brian you are probably right in your assessment of the 700 left over for caribou. What I don't understand and probably never will cause things don't need to make sense in the Nelchina Tier II hunts ;), is why would they then cut the caribou numbers to only 700 permits left over (thus roughly 1/4 of the permits that were allotted last year, but in the same stroke of a pen increase the number of Tier II moose permits by 4 to 5 times the current number of permits. Oh well either way I probably will never draw this hunt. BTW why is it that of the TM300 success rate is roughly only 30% and TC566 is around 50-60%. These should be gimmie hunts. Espeically the TM300. ANY bull? Come on. I am not complaining as generally low success rates allow for my permits allotted in order to obtain harvest goals, but that is pretty sad success rates IMO.
 

Alaska_Lanche

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I don't know much, but possibly a little, so anything I put here is not 'set in concrete.

As far as Moose go, there will be drawing for 3, maybe 4 'remote area's', permits will probably be 50 permits per area, for this year. So we're looking at possibly 150-200 drawing permits total, this doesn't include the 'community harvest permits'. I'm pretty sure one area will be near/or including the Alphabet hills off the Denali hwy. Another might be in the Chistitina area. The other 1 or possibly 2, I have no clue. Could be remote enough, fly-in might be necessary.

The only thing I know about Caribou, is there hasn't been much for 'counts' the past couple of years. I would guess the Bio's will do a spring count to get a estimate of what the 'drawing' numbers will be.

And no telling what might occur with the 'lawsuit' proceeding.

DEDWUF,

Who are you trying to kid? You generally have your ear to the ground more than most on anything related to this type of info, quit being so modest ;).

A remote fly in possibly for Tier II moose?? Man it just gets better and better doesn't it? HAHA.

Thanks for the info DEDWUF, and like you said though it could all be for not with the lawsuit.
 

DEDWUF

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yeah a remote fly-in, but you can't use anything motorized....

The areas for Moose are most likely, the 'permit' numbers could be higher per area (posssibility 150), but since this will be 'new' process, lower permit numbers are more likely.

Thanks for refreshing my memory, I couldn't figure why my ears have been so cold and full of snow.
 

Akres

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yeah a remote fly-in, but you can't use anything motorized....

The areas for Moose are most likely, the 'permit' numbers could be higher per area (posssibility 150), but since this will be 'new' process, lower permit numbers are more likely.

Thanks for refreshing my memory, I couldn't figure why my ears have been so cold and full of snow.

What I have heard being discussed are the hunts you reference as being remote difficult to get to sections, will be for the Drawing Hunts. The road and trail accessible regions are being examined for the Community Harvest Quota's. The Non-Motorized (or limited non-motorized, eg no aircraft) question for the Drawing Hunts is on the table as well. The devil is in the details, as always. ;)
 

bushrat

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some thoughts and info

some thoughts and info

Latest word I got is the actual finalized regs the Board passed, and the framework for how this will all work, will be available soon.

When I spoke with some of the Ahtna Tene folks at the BOG meeting, I have to admit I was sympathetic to what they were asking for, and also what it would mean for other communities within the unit. There are some members of this forum who live within Unit 13 who can't or haven't drawn permits, while hunters from Kasilof and other far-off areas do. It's all a question of human ethics within the framework of our laws, our constitution. It's a tough issue cuz even though our constitution mandates common use for all equally, the state courts over the years have recognized that those living within a certain proximity to a game resourse have a preference when the harvestable surplus will only allow so many animals to be taken. Tier system was born out of that. And within that Tier framework are words like "subsistence" and determinations like C&T (customary and traditional) uses and ANS (amount necessary for subsistence). And with Nelchina caribou the entire harvestable surplus of animals is already allocated to the ANS and since the habitat will only support so many animals this will likely be true forever. The supply will never meet the demand. That's where we are.

Each community within a unit has C&T uses of game. Regardless of race. So I've always personally viewed what Ahtna asked for as having to do with communities within a unit. (yeah, some will give me flack for that opinion, but I'm just saying if you look at the statute here it isn't just about Native communities but applies to all communities in that area.)

The Tier system in this area has been one of the most controversial in the state. One lawsuit after another. Board is at their wits end. Don't blame them. Could be this particular change to the community harvest statute doesn't pass legal muster, not sure. Yes, it's been in statute since 2000. Isn't like this is a new idea.

I know there are strong feelings on this. Grounded both in wanting to literally stick with our state constitution and also wanting to be fair. And I respect those differing views. What I really have a hard time with is when people throw out claims that aren't even close to the truth, don't back anything up with any facts, and play that dang race card that generalizes about a whole group.

Bottom line is that no matter our race, we all have certain customary and traditional uses of wild game. And there are places where the demand for that wild game - based on human population increases - exceeds the harvestable surplus. In some cases we can increase the harvestable surplus for humans, but still in terms of the Nelchina caribou herd, we can never increase it to meet the demand. So how to fairly allocate it within the framework of our existing laws?
 

AVALANCHE

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So how to fairly allocate it within the framework of our existing laws?

You don't give the reins to a Native Tribe to decide who gets to hunt, and pay em to hunt, or pay their expenses even and who gets the meat and who gets what meat or how much meat.

That ain't right. I don't know what is....but that ain't right

Maybe it should be a first come first serve permit issued by the Department in Glennallen, one per household. After 30 days open the first come first serve again...one per household....something like that but it can not be left up to the Tribe to decide who gets to do what.

And it is the boards job to do the right thing the first time....not to get frustrated and toss something out there satisfied that the courts will figure it out.
 

DEDWUF

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Akres, I was joking about fly-in, you know 'non motorized airplanes'.

However, yes,, some of the areas might require a flight in, but not to a non-motorized area. Or horses to get in. To a drawing area.
 

Akres

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Akres, I was joking about fly-in, you know 'non motorized airplanes'.

However, yes,, some of the areas might require a flight in, but not to a non-motorized area. Or horses to get in. To a drawing area.

Wuf,
I was not joking. It is on the table to keep the prohibition of aircraft use in place. Wheelers and track rigs are a go, but planes are "up in the air" as we wait the final decision. "Pun Intended". Bottom line, the Permit Draw locations are looking to be tough to get into. :)

Rat,
There is no way to allocate resources of any kind "fairly". It has to be done equitably or not at all, if we are going to ever be able to look one another in the eye, without the guilt, bias and bigotry coming out. But I think you know that. ;)
 

DEDWUF

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Akres, thats why I said "might",,in regard to fly-in..

Regardless of the decision made, I just hope they don't "over allocate" with Moose & Caribou drawing or community hunts. The gains from the past several years of predator control (and hopefully continuous predator control) should not be jeopardized for 'instant gratification' from 'demanding' hunters. Regardless of who they are or where they live.
IMO, allocations should be much less than the gains made in the past recent years. However, I'm not saying there should be no increase, especially areas where there has been a definite increase with Moose.
Too much pressure to soon would be self defeating.
 

Alaska_Lanche

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When I spoke with some of the Ahtna Tene folks at the BOG meeting, I have to admit I was sympathetic to what they were asking for, and also what it would mean for other communities within the unit. There are some members of this forum who live within Unit 13 who can't or haven't drawn permits, while hunters from Kasilof and other far-off areas do.

Mark,

I'm sorry but these rural villages AHTNA included aren't like those off the road system or where you reside. All of these folks are fully capable of a 12 hour round trip grocery run to Fairbanks or Anchorage Sam's Club/Costco . I could be sympathetic if it cost each family of 4 a minimum of $2,000 or so for a flight to the big city then they might have the argument. But $100 in gas can get your whole family round trip to and from Anchorage of Fairbanks.

Another reason I can have too much sympathy is due to federal permits these communities already have access to. I grew up in Cantwell. Only time anyone drew Tier II in our family was 1997 I believe when everyone and their dog drew. We still shot caribou every year growing up. How?? Cause in the town of Cantwell each household is allotted 6 caribou per year (2 permits for 3 people in that household in the federal 1980 land additions of Denali National Park). We made due with the other options available, no reason the people in these villages can't already do the same. Plus we were allowed one ANY ANTLERED bull per household in the 1980 land additions of Denali National Park. So I guess what I am trying to say is that the folks in most of the villages already have other options available to them. If they can't get by on the 1 moose and 6 caribou permits already given to each household what is all these other permits giving to these communities going to do for them? Their rational just doesn't hold water IMO.

I am not advocating for either side. The Tier II title for these hunts is a joke no matter where you live "rural" or urban. Community designated permits aren't going to be anymore used than the federal permits already available to these communities. It is just a shame that the laws have been written to the point where it makes it hard to do anything logical (like normal random draw) without it being taken straight to court.

Sorry rant over.
 
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Waltuo

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Nelchina Permits

Nelchina Permits

The biologist at the Board of game meeting said that only 1,000 caribou can be taken this year from the Nelchina herd. And he said with 400 going to the Feds, and 300 to Ahtna, that leaves only 300 for Nelchina drawing for the once every four year lottary. They also said that once they announce that anyone can get into the lottery they expcect 50,000 or more applicants from state wide. Tier II is not out yet, with the law suit the new regs will most likely not be signed into effect this year meaning we are stuck with Tier II for another year, or more, instead of being forced into the lottary barrel where the odds are most will never ever get a permit. Thank you Mr. Manning
 

FamilyMan

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Walt, chill

Walt, chill

I get really nervous when I become the hall monitor, but wouldn't your argument hold more sway if you called people names less often and keep it about it, not them?
 

gogoalie

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waltoe...

waltoe...

won't be around long if he keeps up this attitude...
 

Phish Finder

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I spoke with Mr. Judkins at my kitchen table regarding the Nelchina herd. It sounds as if the new system is the only one that would allow me, Joe Alaska Resident, an opportunity to hunt the Nelchina herd. I'm slow, so if someone would have the decency to PM me a layman's description of the problem with this system, I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks.
 
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