Who Has the Legal Right to Fish?

[4merguide]

Personally, imo, I don't think guides should be allowed in the PU fishery, just like I don't think nonresidents should be allowed. That whole thing has become a real zoo and we don't need to make it any worse. There again, I'm one that can't bring myself to combat fish anymore either.

 

[tvfinak]

Spend some time on the beach dip netting, and you will see the occasional p*ricks running as close shore as possible trying to swamp the dip netters. Happens every year.

Many people are down there with their families, and lots of wives and children in the water. Totally uncalled for and not excusable - period. One's effort to make some coins does not give them a license to endanger the lives of others - esp. women and children.

The majority of the fishermen do run further out in the channel and act responsibly. Wakes from them are all part of the game and expected with no hard feelings. But the few p*ricks give all a bad reputation. The rest of the responsible fishermen should police their own for the good of all, instead of making excuses for them.

 

[iofthetaiga]

t really shines here. Did you ever think about the time factor that these guys have to try and make some coin? Or that the boat and the horsepower throw a big wake and he’s just trying to do his job? I have not witnessed what you claim but from all of your other posts, seems slanted.

All Alaskans. Big State, it’s not just KP, Fairbanks, and Anchorage.

Tvf's obvious bias notwithstanding, boat captains are people and lots of people are not so great. I've had passing seiners abruptly change course explicitly to make a close pass and wake me. Last year, upon return to the cabin I had rented I found a large tender occupying the small anchorage out front and all my #1 stove fuel missing. Seiners have broken into and burgled my friends private cabin... People manage to find plenty of time to be horrible examples of humanity while "just trying to do [their] job".

 

[4merguide]

Tvf's obvious bias notwithstanding, boat captains are people and lots of people are not so great. I've had passing seiners abruptly change course explicitly to make a close pass and wake me. Last year, upon return to the cabin I had rented I found a large tender occupying the small anchorage out front and all my #1 stove fuel missing. Seiners have broken into and burgled my friends private cabin...

"A true Alaskan wilderness experience!"....eh?

 

[smithtb]

Spend some time on the beach dip netting, and you will see the occasional p*ricks running as close shore as possible trying to swamp the dip netters. Happens every year.

Many people are down there with their families, and lots of wives and children in the water. Totally uncalled for and not excusable - period. One's effort to make some coins does not give them a license to endanger the lives of others - esp. women and children.

The majority of the fishermen do run further out in the channel and act responsibly. Wakes from them are all part of the game and expected with no hard feelings. But the few p*ricks give all a bad reputation. The rest of the responsible fishermen should police their own for the good of all, instead of making excuses for them.

Dealing with boat wakes while fishing is an issue on the entire lower river. Some people are jerks. No different upriver than it is at the ocean entrance to the Port of Kenai. It’s part of dealing with people on a river with zero limits on participation. I know plenty of property owners who have erosion issues due to boat wakes in the PU fishery at high tide. The City of Kenai tries to minimize this by creating no wake zones, but lots of folks ignore them. It is what it is. If you want peace and quiet, fish upriver on Drift Boat Monday… oh, wait, that doesn’t exist any more.

 

[mark knapp]

Management of resident fish and game is different than management of highly migratory species like salmon. It's the reason you see resident only sport hunting opportunity but rarely see resident only sport salmon fishing opportunity. Salmon are subject to Federal management oversight/standards throughout the entirety of their migration range. Federal management standards make it very tough for states to discriminate based on residency when it comes to salmon. As I said, I believe the PU salmon fisheries are on questionable legal ground, but don't think that has been challenged in court. Can't speak to subsistence. But, the second you start talking about commercial business activity, the standards change because it involves interstate commerce. That's what I was trying to focus on here. Anyone know of any other industry where the right to conduct business is only open to residents of that State? I don't.

The icing on the cake on the Kenai River is that Kenai Sockeye spawn nearly exclusively on Federal land/waters. If the Feds did decide to flex their muscle we'd have a real struggle on our hands arguing that Alaskans have exclusive access to these fish and we can manage them as we please. We can disagree on my points here, but I don't think they are wildly off base The fact that UCIDA is winning their lawsuit relative to this point is proof IMO.

OK, First, what I said was, In my opinion, nonresidents should not be allowed to come up here and make money in Alaska, on Alaskan resources, and take the money home with them without paying taxes up here. I said nothing about salmon specifically.

Second, the Kenai river, is on the list of navigable rivers up here, it is State land and State managed.

Third, (now, I'll mention salmon) once a fish enters a terminal fishery it is not managed any more by the feds, its in state waters and managed by the state.

If the feds want to make meaningful change, maybe they can do something about illegal high seas intercept fishing and by-catch.

 

[mark knapp]

Nobody really gives a rat's a** about what's best for the resource.

Really? How the heck do you know? You are wrong and all wet.

 

[iofthetaiga]

Really, How the heck do you know?

Observation.

 

[iofthetaiga]

"A true Alaskan wilderness experience!"....eh?

Yup.

 

[Daveinthebush]

Dealing with boat wakes while fishing is an issue on the entire lower river.

Not just there. Valdez boat harbor has this all the time. People drive on the wrong side of the channel, troll in the harbor and even dump their gray and black water in the harbor. Once silvers are in you can pretty much forget basic boating safety and navigation rules. I've been 70 miles out of port and have had people stop within 50' of my boat and start fishing. Expecting the best from all people is a dream.

 

[mark knapp]

Observation.

You said, "Nobody really gives a rat's a** about what's best for the resource."

First of all, you don't know "Everybody". I am a somebody, and I know many more of them (somebodies). I care about resources as do many others. You have a dismal opinion of our wildlife management and all other users of our wildlife, but remember, it is just your opinion. It's a slap in the face of every wildlife manager and Regional Advisory Committee up here, and in my opinion, yours is wrong.

If things are as bad as you say they are up here, why would you stay?

 

[tvfinak]

Dealing with boat wakes while fishing is an issue on the entire lower river. Some people are jerks. No different upriver than it is at the ocean entrance to the Port of Kenai. It’s part of dealing with people on a river with zero limits on participation. I know plenty of property owners who have erosion issues due to boat wakes in the PU fishery at high tide. The City of Kenai tries to minimize this by creating no wake zones, but lots of folks ignore them. It is what it is. If you want peace and quiet, fish upriver on Drift Boat Monday… oh, wait, that doesn’t exist any more.

Recklessness and disregard for others is bad enough. Intentionally trying to swamp peope - esp. women and children - is about as bad as you can get - just short of purposely directly injuring someone.

And the other commercial guys make excuses for the p*ricks and then wonder why the dip netters are "biased"! Maybe some of the comm guys should take their families down to the beach sometime and observe the behavior of their buddies.

 

[iofthetaiga]

If things are as bad as you say they are up here, why would you stay?

Horrible human behavior is not unique to Alaska.

 

[tvfinak]

Horrible human behavior is not unique to Alaska.

It is certainly not unique! But acceptance by a group is really sad - esp. when the group is trying to cultivate public favor.

 

[iofthetaiga]

It is certainly not unique! But acceptance by a group is really sad - esp. when the group is trying to cultivate public favor.

See kenaibow fan's prior observation regarding tribalism.

 

[smithtb]

OK, First, what I said was, In my opinion, nonresidents should not be allowed to come up here and make money in Alaska, on Alaskan resources, and take the money home with them without paying taxes up here. I said nothing about salmon specifically.

Second, the Kenai river, is on the list of navigable rivers up here, it is State land and State managed.

Third, (now, I'll mention salmon) once a fish enters a terminal fishery it is not managed any more by the feds, its in state waters and managed by the state.

If the feds want to make meaningful change, maybe they can do something about illegal high seas intercept fishing and by-catch.

I'm generally in support of higher taxes.
Fair that the Kenai is state managed.
Completely agree that the Feds need to do something about high seas intercept.

But I'll disagree on Federal Jurisdiction on salmon in State waters, even if the Feds aren't enforcing it. From the "definitions" portion of MSA:

101-627
(29)
The term "migratory range" means the maximum area at a given time of the year within which fish of an anadromous species or stock thereof can be expected to be found, as determined on the basis of scale pattern analysis, tagging studies, or other reliable scientific information, except that the term does not include any part of such area which is in the waters of a foreign nation.

Doesn't say anything about Federal standards not applying once the fish hit freshwater or state waters. In fact IIRC, Nerka once pointed out that some of this legislation was specifically written due to neighboring states fighting over who's residents got to harvest the salmon in bodies of water shared by multiple states. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps they'll never exercise authority over management in these areas, but I think it's a possibility if we take things too far. After all, the Feds have historically helped with research (weirs in the refuge), pay disaster funding when guides or commies have a bad season, and the entire nation depends on Salmon for food. So I believe that it's a shared resource more than many of us would like to admit.

Again, we're on a sidebar since the main point of my post was relative to conducting commerce across state lines in the United States

 

[smithtb]

I guess a follow-up question I would have relative to Federal management jurisdiction/standards on migratory species inside State land/waters would be why Fed standards still apply to waterfoul hunting on State land? Can I ditch the Federal Duck stamp when I’m on Skilak? Maybe it’s totally different - genuine question - but seems like sort of the same deal - these species are considered a national resource and our authority to manage as states is subject to certain limitations and standards through their migration range - even when they’re on “our” land or water.

 

[kenaibow fan]

I guess a follow-up question I would have relative to Federal management jurisdiction/standards on migratory species inside State land/waters would be why Fed standards still apply to waterfoul hunting on State land? Can I ditch the Federal Duck stamp when I’m on Skilak? Maybe it’s totally different - genuine question - but seems like sort of the same deal - these species are considered a national resource and our authority to manage as states is subject to certain limitations and standards through their migration range - even when they’re on “our” land or water.

I’m guessing it’s not the same because ducks are “more” migratory in terms of distance. But who knows???????

 

[SmokeRoss]

At statehood it was decided and accepted that States would manage its own fish and wildlife.

I personally think it's not right for outside interests to come to Alaska and make money off of state resources (many times with out even paying for the privilege, to do so, through taxes and licenses. Many times not even buying supplies and gas here, or even hiring Alaskans.

Sadly it doesn't work that way here. The feds decide what happens on the Refuges. I'm referring specifically to the KNWR, where they often trump the states rules.

 

[bottom_dweller]

The rest of the responsible fishermen should police their own for the good of all, instead of making excuses for them.

Tell me o educated one, what is your secret for herding quail. As if