Who Has the Legal Right to Fish?

[Patsfan54]

My biggest concern about opening up the PU fishery to everyone, resident or non-resident, is how can the environmental damage caused by that substantial increase in use with the large increase in numbers of participants, affect the river(s) habitat and productivity. Doubtful that would be a positive thing for the river(s).

It's already a disaster area, fecal coliform blooms every year exactly when the PU (no pun intended) fishery takes place on the Kenai. Every year there are warnings to not clean your fish in the Kenai due to poop filled water. The good news is that the toilet bowl is flushed twice daily and the PU area doesn't extend beyond the tidal flushing zone.

If the PU fishery were opened to all resident and nonresident I'd expect little change in the overall numbers, the nonresidents who want that poop show of an experience are already getting it since enforcement only catches a small percentage of violators. The vast majority of nonresidents who want the Alaskan experience want nothing to do with that poop show and would prefer to pay for something more meaningful. On top of that if PU were opened to nonresidents it would be changed at the first fish board meeting which would be an emergency meeting scheduled the day after it was changed.

 

[Patsfan54]

No one is seriously considering opening it up to nonresidents. It was a sidebar. I do have issue with the common assumption that making a fishery/hunt residents only is automatically conservation. Not always true. BOG made this assumption just yesterday - with hardly any discussion - and displaced a whole bunch of Sheep guides from 19C.

According to RHAK 90% of the sheep taken last year in 19C were taken by nonresidents. Next year it will be 100% resident harvest. I don't know how many sheep were taken last year, but I'd be willing to bet there will be less taken this year.

 

[Patsfan54]

But its not shared impact. guides take more per day (combined with all clients) than PU take per week or month

Good point, sports and PU users are limited. As it stands PU commercial guide could take 10-20 clients a day, or more. Of course a commercial driftnetter or setnetter (if allowed to fish) can take many, many, many multiples of the limits of a sport or personal use fisherman...with no limit, except competition, what their boat will carry, and how many fish enter their net.

 

[smithtb]

According to RHAK 90% of the sheep taken last year in 19C were taken by nonresidents. Next year it will be 100% resident harvest. I don't know how many sheep were taken last year, but I'd be willing to bet there will be less taken this year.

This is certainly a topic for another area on the forums, and you have a valid point, but we don't know what the impact will be. Could be that guides are hard up for clients and folks like me know I can get a better deal on a drop off, so more residents will hunt and kill sheep. Or could be that since they left 15 open to sheep, a bunch of guides will be crawling around the Kenai Mountains with their clients. I just think more discussion was warranted.

 

[smithtb]

Good point, sports and PU users are limited. As it stands PU commercial guide could take 10-20 clients a day, or more. Of course a commercial driftnetter or setnetter (if allowed to fish) can take many, many, many multiples of the limits of a sport or personal use fisherman...with no limit, except competition, what their boat will carry, and how many fish enter their net.

Gotta point out that the environmental/habitat impact of a drifter or setnetter per fish caught is substantially lower than what's going on in the river, and that there are very strict limits on participation which haven't changed for many decades Way more efficient fishery and that matters when it comes to providing food for the nation at minimum financial cost and cost to fish habitat.

 

[Patsfan54]

Gotta point out that the environmental/habitat impact of a drifter or setnetter per fish caught is substantially lower than what's going on in the river, and that there are very strict limits on participation which haven't changed for many decades Way more efficient fishery and that matters when it comes to providing food for the nation at minimum financial cost and cost to fish habitat.

That's certainly true, but if the environmental/habitat factor in addition to the efficiency factor actually mattered then things would be a lot different.

On the Kenai in the sports fishery we'd be allowed to snag fish, I mean we snag fish now but we pretend we don't, because we "catch" them "in the mouth". Every snagged fish would go towards your bag limit no matter where it was snagged. The only reason snagging was outlawed was because commercial interests didn't want pesky locals gathering their own food supply and taking away from their catch.

On the Kenai in the personal use fishery we'd allow larger nets and gill nets so people could catch more quicker, especially when it's slow.

In the Cook Inlet we'd ban individual boats and institute fish traps since we could save the environment and release each and every single king that entered the trap.

If we want to provide the most bestest environmentally friendliest most efficientientest fisheries we can do that, but let's not kid ourselves that hundreds of small boats with relatively small nets and hundreds of setnet sites is how we get there or that they are monumentally more betterer than dirty inefficient PU or sports fisheries.

 

[smithtb]

I get it, and it bums me out to release snagged Sockeye. Just pointing out that the commercial fisheries more efficiently harvest volume and that's not a bad thing in a properly managed fishery.

 

[tvfinak]

Agreed. Pretty crazy that my barber pays more in licensing fees than freshwater guides do. Is there any other industry in this state that profits from a public resource yet pays zero dollars in state licensing/registration fees or taxes? If there is I haven't found it. Hell, I'm $1,500 deep in registration/renewal fees for my setnet operation and we're already closed for the year.

Agree that guides should pay a hefty fee for the privilege. They screw up fishing for residents, and offer little in return.

But likewise, the whole commercial fishing enterprise in Alaska pay relatively little in undesignated taxes that benefit all Alaskans. Less than the tobacco tax pays to put things in perspective! The figures are here: https://tax.alaska.gov/programs/programs/reports/RSB.aspx?Year=2023&Type=Spring

 

[tvfinak]

That's certainly true, but if the environmental/habitat factor in addition to the efficiency factor actually mattered then things would be a lot different.

On the Kenai in the sports fishery we'd be allowed to snag fish, I mean we snag fish now but we pretend we don't, because we "catch" them "in the mouth". Every snagged fish would go towards your bag limit no matter where it was snagged. The only reason snagging was outlawed was because commercial interests didn't want pesky locals gathering their own food supply and taking away from their catch.

On the Kenai in the personal use fishery we'd allow larger nets and gill nets so people could catch more quicker, especially when it's slow.

In the Cook Inlet we'd ban individual boats and institute fish traps since we could save the environment and release each and every single king that entered the trap.

If we want to provide the most bestest environmentally friendliest most efficientientest fisheries we can do that, but let's not kid ourselves that hundreds of small boats with relatively small nets and hundreds of setnet sites is how we get there or that they are monumentally more betterer than dirty inefficient PU or sports fisheries.

It's already a disaster area, fecal coliform blooms every year exactly when the PU (no pun intended) fishery takes place on the Kenai. Every year there are warnings to not clean your fish in the Kenai due to poop filled water. The good news is that the toilet bowl is flushed twice daily and the PU area doesn't extend beyond the tidal flushing zone.

If the PU fishery were opened to all resident and nonresident I'd expect little change in the overall numbers, the nonresidents who want that poop show of an experience are already getting it since enforcement only catches a small percentage of violators. The vast majority of nonresidents who want the Alaskan experience want nothing to do with that poop show and would prefer to pay for something more meaningful. On top of that if PU were opened to nonresidents it would be changed at the first fish board meeting which would be an emergency meeting scheduled the day after it was changed.

It helps that I live in Kenai, but the PU fishing is one of my highlights of the year.

Since I'm retired, I hit the beach about every day, fishing or not> a great time meeting and helping my fellow Alaskans.

When I lived in Anchorage it was much less enjoyable I will admit, but still a fun time.

 

[bottom_dweller]

Agree that guides should pay a hefty fee for the privilege. They screw up fishing for residents, and offer little in return.

But likewise, the whole commercial fishing enterprise in Alaska pay relatively little in undesignated taxes that benefit all Alaskans. Less than the tobacco tax pays to put things in perspective! The figures are here: https://tax.alaska.gov/programs/programs/reports/RSB.aspx?Year=2023&Type=Spring

The whole commercial fishing enterprise…..

Is TAX the only benefit that your pencil figures or fingers google?My town along with a whole bunch more would go belly up if it weren’t for commercial fishermen. Are they Alaskans? 99%. Does their income from commercial fishing not benefit the economy and the state?

 

[urbanhillbilly]

It helps that I live in Kenai, but the PU fishing is one of my highlights of the year.

Since I'm retired, I hit the beach about every day, fishing or not> a great time meeting and helping my fellow Alaskans.

When I lived in Anchorage it was much less enjoyable I will admit, but still a fun time.

I live in Anchorage and take my family to the Kasilof beach every year for dipping. We love it! Always a great time getting in the water and meeting new people.

On another note as mentioned in a previous post, I NEVER clean my catch on site. I always either take it home or find a cleaning station with fresh water if I’m away from home. A bit more work, but it’s totally worth it.

 

[tvfinak]

The whole commercial fishing enterprise…..

Is TAX the only benefit that your pencil figures or fingers google?My town along with a whole bunch more would go belly up if it weren’t for commercial fishermen. Are they Alaskans? 99%. Does their income from commercial fishing not benefit the economy and the state?

The original comment was about fees or taxes the guides pay - not economic benefit.s. The guides also provide economic benefits to Alaskans.

I wonder how many of the small communities - fishing or otherwise - in Alaska are actually economically viable without state and federal funds and benefits?

Alaska needs to develop and process out resources including fish, oil, and minerals. Full time, year round, well paying jobs are the backbone of a healthy self sustaining economy.

 

[tvfinak]

I live in Anchorage and take my family to the Kasilof beach every year for dipping. We love it! Always a great time getting in the water and meeting new people.

On another note as mentioned in a previous post, I NEVER clean my catch on site. I always either take it home or find a cleaning station with fresh water if I’m away from home. A bit more work, but it’s totally worth it.

The Kenai fish do have parasites, so I like to gut them on the beach as soon as I land them But I do take them home to further clean and fillet them. Living 3 miles from the beach is a big plus.

I've been down to the Kasillof a few times - it does look like one heck of a party. I may go down this year just to hang out.

 

[cdubbin]

"If you perform trade, traffic, or transportation exclusively in your business’s domicile state, this is considered intrastate commerce.

If your trade, traffic, or transportation is one of the following, this is considered interstate commerce. Source: 49 CFR 390.5."

What is the difference between interstate commerce and intrastate commerce?

ask.fmcsa.dot.gov

 

[tvfinak]

"Personally I believe the entire PU fishery is on shaky legal ground Federally..."

Hee-larious, Smith....🤣
...do you believe the same thing about subsistence fisheries?

If it come down to it, the state could issue non-resident personal use permits at a much higher fee just like they do for sport fishing licenses. Probably have to adjust the family limits, and make each family member get a permit.

A hefty fee for non-resident personal use could bring in some money for F&G.

The commercial fishermen would howl bloody murder, but they already hate us dip netters anyway. Look at all the ones trying to swamp out with their wakes running close to shore.

 

[bottom_dweller]

The original comment was about fees or taxes the guides pay - not economic benefit.s. The guides also provide economic benefits to Alaskans.

Correct it was. But I am quite sure that their contribution is squat compared to the “The whole commercial fishing enterprise “, but you fail to mention that. Cherry pick to support your narrative, isn’t that original.

 

[tvfinak]

Correct it was. But I am quite sure that their contribution is squat compared to the “The whole commercial fishing enterprise “, but you fail to mention that. Cherry pick to support your narrative, isn’t that original.

One would certainly expect the total contributions of the guides "to be squat" compared to the whole commercial fishing enterprise in Alaska! Judging from the number of people involved the revenue generated it is just common sense and logic. Remember that commercial fishing bragged they were the largest private sector employer in Alaska. Of course they didn't mention 3/4 of those employees were aliens - now omitting that fact is real "cherry picking" at its best.

Not being involved in tourism, commercial fishing, guides or any other related businesses - I don't have a dog in fight. I just look at the benefits to all Alaskans, and the direct and indirect costs to support those industries and enterprises.

 

[urbanhillbilly]

Personally I don’t see how opening PU to non residents would be a benefit to all Alaskans

 

[tvfinak]

Personally I don’t see how opening PU to non residents would be a benefit to all Alaskans

Revenue from expensive licenses.

Just a suggestion IF we had to open the PU fishery to non-residents.

Personally, I think tourism as a revenue source is a big loser. Short term low paying jobs with many filled by non-residents. And to make it even worse - it degrades the quality of life for Alaskan residents.

 

[bottom_dweller]

One would certainly expect the total contributions of the guides "to be squat" compared to the whole commercial fishing enterprise in Alaska! Judging from the number of people involved the revenue generated it is just common sense and logic. Remember that commercial fishing bragged they were the largest private sector employer in Alaska. Of course they didn't mention 3/4 of those employees were aliens - now omitting that fact is real "cherry picking" at its best.

Not being involved in tourism, commercial fishing, guides or any other related businesses - I don't have a dog in fight. I just look at the benefits to all Alaskans, and the direct and indirect costs to support those industries and enterprises.

If you don’t have a dog in the fight then you have your money down on a dog. You never seem to have anything good to say about the commercial fishing industry. I assure you that most of us are not factory trawlers.

Aliens. I have seen a lot of them at some of the larger towns. This problem has a lot to do with the lack of labor force available when the fishing is taking place. Another reason is work ethic and the willingness to work a slime line. Much like picking strawberries. Lots of work but nobody wants it.

The commercial fishermen would howl bloody murder, but they already hate us dip netters anyway. Look at all the ones trying to swamp out with their wakes running close to shore.

It really shines here. Did you ever think about the time factor that these guys have to try and make some coin? Or that the boat and the horsepower throw a big wake and he’s just trying to do his job? I have not witnessed what you claim but from all of your other posts, seems slanted.

All Alaskans. Big State, it’s not just KP, Fairbanks, and Anchorage.