Who Has the Legal Right to Fish?

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smithtb

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Commercial guiding in the PU and Subsistence fisheries was a subject of discussion at the most recent Statewide BOF meeting. Local Sportfish Guide representatives were there, pushing for opportunity in both fisheries. Sounds like the BOF said no to commercial operation in subsistence fisheries, but reaffirmed their right to operate in AK PU fisheries. It reminded me of the last UCI BOF meeting, in which they had similar discussion. While they passed no regs, they affirmed that it was legal for guides to operate in the PU fishery, but determined that operating in the fishery fit the definition of "participation" in the PU fishery. You must be an AK resident to participate in the fishery, therefor non-resident guides are not allowed to operate in the fishery.

After a little digging, this is what I found for state requirements on sportfish guiding on the Kenai:

A Kenai River sportfish guide is required to have a guide permit from the state of AK, and a green sticker on their boat. Amazingly, guide registration/stickers are still 100% free, but still, gotta have that.
A Kenai River sportfish guide is required to have a USCG Captain's license. There are fees and whizz quizes involved.
A Kenai River Guide must get a Parks Permit through DNR, pay the fee, and make it to the wintertime class which is often booked full.

These requirements apply to sportfish guiding, not PU guiding. The ONLY state requirement for PU guiding is that you are an AK resident.

I'm no legal scholar, but a quick search on the internet shows that many states have struggled with the legality of discrimination against nonresident guides. The US Constitution's Interstate Commerce Clause, and Privileges and Exemptions clause both make this type of discrimination tricky, yet there has been no discussion of this at the BOF level. Am I missing something or do we simply have our heads in the sand thinking that these fish are a state resource and we can discriminate as we please?

The PU fishery often receives management priority. Due to it's location, PU fishermen get first whack at the fish before sport fishermen get a chance at them. So we've granted resident commercial operators an exclusive, priority fishery with reduced cost and barriers to entry, with absolutely zero rational explanation or defense for the practice. Seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

I'll probably submit a proposal to the BOF asking for clarification, since this is all based off of laws that aren't there rather than laws pertaining to the fishery - the BOF has addressed this issue several times but to my knowledge has not codified anything r.e. PU guiding. It's all based on what the law doesn't say, and board intent from their discussions. I fully expect my proposal to get dismissed/ignored, but I think a conversation is warranted. Personally I believe the entire PU fishery is on shaky legal ground Federally, but I use the fishery and don't want to see it go away. It certainly could if someone sues.

Would love someone with legal knowledge to weigh in and tell me if I'm missing something. I simply can't believe this hasn't come up or been addressed at a policymaking level.

https://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/aku/akug98001.pdf
 

cdubbin

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"Personally I believe the entire PU fishery is on shaky legal ground Federally..."

Hee-larious, Smith....🤣
...do you believe the same thing about subsistence fisheries?
 

Brian M

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Do residents fishing for personal use actually ever hire guide? If so, why?
Yes. I work with a guy who runs a boat-based dipnetting service on the Kenai. It gives the people easier access to fishing - especially those who might have mobility issues that make fishing from the beach difficult. And it's also easier - somebody else fillets their fish and keeps them clean. I personally wouldn't do so, but the reasons are pretty apparent.
 

smithtb

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"Personally I believe the entire PU fishery is on shaky legal ground Federally..."

Hee-larious, Smith....🤣
...do you believe the same thing about subsistence fisheries?
No, I do not. I also don't use subsistence fisheries. I feel the same way about guiding in subsistence fisheries as I do personal use fisheries though. While access is great, the entire idea behind the personal use and subsistence fisheries is a way of life and the fact that you (and or your friends or family) harvest your own food. It's not a money thing. I realize there are allocations for trade or barter but still, "subsistence" and "personal use" are pretty definitive terms. Turning into a commercial endeavor not only takes away from that idea, but it spreads users around in a way that can impact other users and the resource. Imagine if we all hired a charter to go "Subsistence" long lining in Seldovia. Ask the Cook Inlet Belugas how shifting subsistence harvest around worked out for them. You get the point.
 

iofthetaiga

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Yes. I work with a guy who runs a boat-based dipnetting service on the Kenai. It gives the people easier access to fishing - especially those who might have mobility issues that make fishing from the beach difficult. And it's also easier - somebody else fillets their fish and keeps them clean. I personally wouldn't do so, but the reasons are pretty apparent.
OK, thanks for confirming that. That was the only reason/scenario I could conceive of. And given it's legal to hire a boat operator while PU fishing, I don't understand what the OP's beef is. Sounds like much ado about nothing, or am I missing something?
 

cdubbin

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No, I do not. I also don't use subsistence fisheries. I feel the same way about guiding in subsistence fisheries as I do personal use fisheries though. While access is great, the entire idea behind the personal use and subsistence fisheries is a way of life and the fact that you (and or your friends or family) harvest your own food. It's not a money thing. I realize there are allocations for trade or barter but still, "subsistence" and "personal use" are pretty definitive terms. Turning into a commercial endeavor not only takes away from that idea, but it spreads users around in a way that can impact other users and the resource. Imagine if we all hired a charter to go "Subsistence" long lining in Seldovia. Ask the Cook Inlet Belugas how shifting subsistence harvest around worked out for them. You get the point.
Ok, I think I see where you're coming from...of course, by your definition, buying a dipnet or waders made by somebody else would also count as a "commercial endeavor" because money has traded hands, LOL....
 

Patsfan54

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"Personally I believe the entire PU fishery is on shaky legal ground Federally..."

Hee-larious, Smith....🤣
...do you believe the same thing about subsistence fisheries?
I don't know why this would be "Hee-larious" the whole idea of personal use as currently practiced was an attempt to get state constitutional rights and federal subsistence laws to somehow align when they are diametrically opposed. The Alaska constitution grants the same rights to all residents, federal law denies those rights.

It's certainly shaky legal ground to allow rights to certain groups while denying those same rights to others.
 

iofthetaiga

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Ok, I think I see where you're coming from...of course, by your definition, buying a dipnet or waders made by somebody else would also count as a "commercial endeavor" because money has traded hands, LOL....
I too now see where he's coming from, but as you allude to it raises the question of where do you draw the line? Shall it be illegal to borrow my buddy's boat to go PU fishing, with or without him as operator? Shall it be illegal for a friend in the village to help me haul my PU fish up to camp with his wheeler? Or for my neighbor to help me cut fish? The legal implications are a mess.
 
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smithtb

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Ok, I think I see where you're coming from...of course, by your definition, buying a dipnet or waders made by somebody else would also count as a "commercial endeavor" because money has traded hands, LOL....
I'm friends with the guy at the hardware store who sells the waders and the guy at the welding shop who makes the dipnets. I promise both of them consider their activites commercial endeavors. They also both pay licensing and registration fees to the state for their businesses and are forced to compete with out-of-state competitors on an even playing field due to the Constitutional clauses I mentioned. I'm sure they'd be more than happy if the state carved out a niche for them but that wouldn't make it right.
 

smithtb

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I too now see where he's coming from, but as you allude to it raises the question of where do you draw the line? Shall it be illegal to borrow my buddy's boat to go PU fishing, with or without him as operator? Shall t be illegal for a friend in the village to help me haul my PU fish up to camp with his wheeler? Or for my neighbor to help me cut fish? The legal implications are a mess.
Dude, even Uber drivers can't make this argument. If you're charging money for rides you're running a business. It's super not complicated. Ask the Coast Guard.
 

iofthetaiga

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It's all based on what the law doesn't say...
Because that's the way the law works; if something is not restricted/prohibited, then it's legal.

I hear where you're coming from, but as I asked above, where do you draw the line? It's a legal quagmire. Would you propose it's ok to borrow my buddy's boat, so long as I don't compensate him, or...?

Best luck making your legal case.
 

smithtb

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Yes. I work with a guy who runs a boat-based dipnetting service on the Kenai. It gives the people easier access to fishing - especially those who might have mobility issues that make fishing from the beach difficult. And it's also easier - somebody else fillets their fish and keeps them clean. I personally wouldn't do so, but the reasons are pretty apparent.
You are correct. There are more and more people doing it. We have no idea how many though, since there are no logbooks and no required markings on boats. I've tried to be ok with the idea because I have nothing against the folks doing it, but I'm at a point with Cook Inlet Management that I'm looking for reasons to force change. We gotta regulate guiding separately, as a limited commercial activity. It's more than just helping people out. Perhaps the most frustrating part for me is that the same folks who (falsely) for decades have claimed that it would be unconstitutional to limit guide numbers now have no problem brushing those concerns aside when it suits them. Not talking about your coworker but rather the local lobby in my area;)
 

smithtb

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Because that's the way the law works; if something is not restricted/prohibited, then it's legal.

I hear where you're coming from, but as I asked above, where do you draw the line? It's a legal quagmire. Would you propose it's ok to borrow my buddy's boat, so long as I don't compensate him, or...?

Best luck making your legal case.
Right, and discriminating against nonresidents engaged in interstate commerce is highly restricted and in most cases prohibited. That's the point of my post.

I'm a resident, and I'm not an attorney, so I won't be making a legal case. Of course it's ok to borrow your buddy's boat. If your buddy is renting his boat out for profit, he's running a business. It's okay for him to say he's helping people out - I help people out all day long at my job. But since I'm doing so for profit, I am running a commercial endeavor - which means I pay untold thousands in licensing, taxes, and insurance, I jump through the legal loopholes, and I compete on an even playing field with residents and non-residents alike. Because we live in the United States, and that's how it works here.
 

smithtb

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Perhaps you can get them to explain/biologically justify on the record why guided PU fishing allowed on the Kenai, but not allowed in other rivers' PU fisheries. I'd be interested to hear the answer to that.
It's allowed in most PU fisheries I think. Kenai is just the one I'm most familiar with and watch/participate in on a daily basis. Same federal issue would apply to most if not all of them I'd think. If the state had a good biological or defensible reason as to why they discriminate, maybe it would pass muster. But I can't imagine what that would be, and given the current administration's luck with federal lawsuits I'm betting they'd lose.
 

urbanhillbilly

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I kind of see what the argument is here… maybe…

Sounds like he’s trying to figure out why PU guides have less red tape than sport guides?

If that’s the case, I can agree with that argument. Guiding is guiding, plain and simple in my book.

I’m interested in this because it wasn’t until the last year or two that I’d ever heard of a PU guide and then I started to see ads for them pop up on Craigslist
 

iofthetaiga

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I kind of see what the argument is here… maybe…

Sounds like he’s trying to figure out why PU guides have less red tape than sport guides?

If that’s the case, I can agree with that argument. Guiding is guiding, plain and simple in my book.

I’m interested in this because it wasn’t until the last year or two that I’d ever heard of a PU guide and then I started to see ads for them pop up on Craigslist
I'd be cool with a statewide prohibition on guided PU. I think it's gonna take an extremely savvy argument for it to get any traction tho...and I don't think a "discrimination" angle is gonna cut it.
 

penguin

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SmithTB, it‘s just my opinion but I think the reason why PU guides do not have the same licensing requirements as the Kenai River fishing guides is the PU fishery is not under the jurisdiction of the Kenai River Special Management Area. The only licensing for PU guides follow under general business licensing with the State and federal laws requiring coast guard licensing to make money in a boat. Should this change? I’m all for it.
 
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