Float Pilot
Well-known member
Anyone have any thoughts about the A-Frames?
I have never used them. Just the Nosler partitions which seemed fine....
I have never used them. Just the Nosler partitions which seemed fine....
Swift A Frames compared to Nosler Part
- Thread starter Float Pilot
- Start date
The bottom line difference is that the A-Frame retains higher than 80% of its weight, even after expanding, while the Partition may sometimes lose most of it's nose and retain around 60%+ or its weight.
Both are "controlled-expansion" bullets. The partition expands faster, while the A-frame may take a fraction of a second longer depending on the velocity each one is launched at.
Float Pilot
Well-known member
A=Frame
A=Frame
Makes me wish that the Bullet manufactures would have "sample packs"
Just 5 or 10 so I good see if they stabilize in my barrel. My reloading bench is decorated with 90% full boxes of bullets that never worked out....
Although they do make ok slingshot ammo from time to time...
A=Frame
Makes me wish that the Bullet manufactures would have "sample packs"
Just 5 or 10 so I good see if they stabilize in my barrel. My reloading bench is decorated with 90% full boxes of bullets that never worked out....
Although they do make ok slingshot ammo from time to time...
I've never recovered enough of either from game to say which is better, so I shoot both in a gun and decide which is most accurate. Okay, okay. I have recovered exactly one Nosler out of hundreds of animals and no Aframes, so I guess Aframes must be better, right?
Seriously, I recovered the one (started as a 165gr 30 cal) from a deer shot end to end at about 150 yards. It weighed 137 grains.
I really care a lot more about smaller groups with my hunting bullets than a little better theoretical penetration. I can measure group size, but when penetration is already complete, it's pretty hard to choose one over the other. YMMV, but I wouldn't sacrifice accuracy in favor of theoretical penetration. Shoot whichever performs best in your gun, then shoot enough animals to finally recover a bullet.
Seriously, I recovered the one (started as a 165gr 30 cal) from a deer shot end to end at about 150 yards. It weighed 137 grains.
I really care a lot more about smaller groups with my hunting bullets than a little better theoretical penetration. I can measure group size, but when penetration is already complete, it's pretty hard to choose one over the other. YMMV, but I wouldn't sacrifice accuracy in favor of theoretical penetration. Shoot whichever performs best in your gun, then shoot enough animals to finally recover a bullet.
A-frames vs Partition (round one)
A-frames vs Partition (round one)
Float Pilot,
My take on A-frames vs Partition. It depends!
That wasn't much help. But I used to hunt with this fellow who, when asked about his bullets, would say "I never had one sprout legs and run off." I don't know if he meant the bullet, or the quarry, but I think he meant the bullets worked. Definately, both are in this category.
Both bullets are dual core with a bulkhead of jacket material between the front and rear core. (Actually a billet of copper milled out at both ends then filled with the cores.) Both are lead core but the A-frame has the front core bonded to the jacket. Also Swift use soft copper and the partitions are now gilding metal which is copper with a small amount of zinc as an alloy. The soft copper stretches more but doesn't rupture, the alloy is more resistant to tearing, so is a little tougher. The bonded core of the A-frame keeps the front core attached to the back half and most of the time the front of the partition is destroyed (creating massive wounding) and the back half is found under the hide.
I would say that if your rifle delivers muzzle velocity of about 2800 fps or less, the Partition is a better bullet than anything available today. By better I'm talking about termnal performance, not accuracy. Accuracy is a personal preference as to what is good enough but, partitions are generally very accurate bullets. This 2800 fps is really impact velocity but we use muzzle velocity as we can't know ahead of time how far our target will be. This varies from caliber to caliber but basically at "standard velocity" the partition is it.
At magnum velocity, or impact velocity greater than 2800 fps or maybe 2400 for the big bores (40 cal. and up), the A-frame is better. Higher impact energy puts much greater strain on a bullet and higher velocity or just heavier (400 grain) bullets deliver more impact energy. For the hard hitters the Swift is superior to the partition and will retain more weight and penetrate better.
There are many variables in this so only guidelines can be given but this has held true for me for a long while and for a number of animals.
The 30-06, 180 gr, the 338 WM, 250 gr, and the 375 H&H, 260 & 300 gr, all perform very well with the partition. However with the heavier bullets and heavier thicker bodied animals I would opt for the Swift A-frames in the 338 and 375. When I discovered the 30-06 and 180 grain partitions and found a rifle that would send them out at 2750 fps into an inch or less, I never had any need for a 30 caliber magnum. This combo is hard to beat. I don't use the '06 for huge or carnivorous types but for everything from springbuck to eland and coos deer to elk, it has been all that any hunter could hope for. And many animals in excess of 300 yards expired after receiving a single partition from this rifle.
I consider the A-frame ideal for the 338 and moose or grizzly, I would prefer it over the partition. With the partition and moose, I'd want only broad side shots and take out lungs with it.
A-frames vs Partition (round one)
Float Pilot,
My take on A-frames vs Partition. It depends!
That wasn't much help. But I used to hunt with this fellow who, when asked about his bullets, would say "I never had one sprout legs and run off." I don't know if he meant the bullet, or the quarry, but I think he meant the bullets worked. Definately, both are in this category.
Both bullets are dual core with a bulkhead of jacket material between the front and rear core. (Actually a billet of copper milled out at both ends then filled with the cores.) Both are lead core but the A-frame has the front core bonded to the jacket. Also Swift use soft copper and the partitions are now gilding metal which is copper with a small amount of zinc as an alloy. The soft copper stretches more but doesn't rupture, the alloy is more resistant to tearing, so is a little tougher. The bonded core of the A-frame keeps the front core attached to the back half and most of the time the front of the partition is destroyed (creating massive wounding) and the back half is found under the hide.
I would say that if your rifle delivers muzzle velocity of about 2800 fps or less, the Partition is a better bullet than anything available today. By better I'm talking about termnal performance, not accuracy. Accuracy is a personal preference as to what is good enough but, partitions are generally very accurate bullets. This 2800 fps is really impact velocity but we use muzzle velocity as we can't know ahead of time how far our target will be. This varies from caliber to caliber but basically at "standard velocity" the partition is it.
At magnum velocity, or impact velocity greater than 2800 fps or maybe 2400 for the big bores (40 cal. and up), the A-frame is better. Higher impact energy puts much greater strain on a bullet and higher velocity or just heavier (400 grain) bullets deliver more impact energy. For the hard hitters the Swift is superior to the partition and will retain more weight and penetrate better.
There are many variables in this so only guidelines can be given but this has held true for me for a long while and for a number of animals.
The 30-06, 180 gr, the 338 WM, 250 gr, and the 375 H&H, 260 & 300 gr, all perform very well with the partition. However with the heavier bullets and heavier thicker bodied animals I would opt for the Swift A-frames in the 338 and 375. When I discovered the 30-06 and 180 grain partitions and found a rifle that would send them out at 2750 fps into an inch or less, I never had any need for a 30 caliber magnum. This combo is hard to beat. I don't use the '06 for huge or carnivorous types but for everything from springbuck to eland and coos deer to elk, it has been all that any hunter could hope for. And many animals in excess of 300 yards expired after receiving a single partition from this rifle.
I consider the A-frame ideal for the 338 and moose or grizzly, I would prefer it over the partition. With the partition and moose, I'd want only broad side shots and take out lungs with it.
Float Pilot
Well-known member
It will be in a 350 remington Mag this time.
I was used to the 358 Norma Mag velocities in the past.
But with the stubby 350 rem Mag, I will only be getting @2500fps at the muzzle for a 250 grain slug and around 2700fps for a 225gr. Still a good little brush gun out to 250.
In 358
I have a bunch of Speer and Hornady 250 grain spitzers,
some Nosler partitions (250s)
and a box of 225 grain Seirrra Boat-tails that refused to shoot worth a darn in my old 358 Norma.
Plus I have some old 275 grain solids around here someplace...
xx
I was used to the 358 Norma Mag velocities in the past.
But with the stubby 350 rem Mag, I will only be getting @2500fps at the muzzle for a 250 grain slug and around 2700fps for a 225gr. Still a good little brush gun out to 250.
In 358
I have a bunch of Speer and Hornady 250 grain spitzers,
some Nosler partitions (250s)
and a box of 225 grain Seirrra Boat-tails that refused to shoot worth a darn in my old 358 Norma.
Plus I have some old 275 grain solids around here someplace...
xx
SlimPickins
New member
I think bonded bullets are better
I think bonded bullets are better
The partition is certainly a proven bullet so I won't say anything bad about it. But in terms of terminal performance, I don't see many situations where the bonded core of the Swift would be a significant disadvantage. On dangerous game I'd much rather have the Swift. In fact the Aframe and North Forks toughest soft would be my top choices for dangerous game except elephants where you need a solid.
For long range big game shooting, which means non dangerous game, I think bullets like the Nosler Accubond and Swift Scirocco 2 will steal sales away from the partition because they have higher BC. If they are more accurate than the partition, they will steal a lot of sales. I've taken a few hogs with them, 180gr .308WM, and they penetrate a long ways. They are much better than the cup and core and as good as partition on penetration in my experience.
The thing is you really need to shoot hundreds of animals to be sure. Few of us have that much experience, so we have to learn from others. I appreciate all views!
I think bonded bullets are better
The partition is certainly a proven bullet so I won't say anything bad about it. But in terms of terminal performance, I don't see many situations where the bonded core of the Swift would be a significant disadvantage. On dangerous game I'd much rather have the Swift. In fact the Aframe and North Forks toughest soft would be my top choices for dangerous game except elephants where you need a solid.
For long range big game shooting, which means non dangerous game, I think bullets like the Nosler Accubond and Swift Scirocco 2 will steal sales away from the partition because they have higher BC. If they are more accurate than the partition, they will steal a lot of sales. I've taken a few hogs with them, 180gr .308WM, and they penetrate a long ways. They are much better than the cup and core and as good as partition on penetration in my experience.
The thing is you really need to shoot hundreds of animals to be sure. Few of us have that much experience, so we have to learn from others. I appreciate all views!
The A-Frame is a highly regarded bullet by hunters in Africa. For bears i would rather use the A-Frame to the Partition, but the Partition has not let me down on moose so far. The only problem have had with it is the nose completely disintegrating when it hit a moose's lungs. The round was a Federal 250-grain NOS HE, and the moose was broadside 275 yards away. Id did kill the moose pretty fast (almost on the spot), but all I found from the bullet were pieces of lead. I never found the jacket, even though it didn't pass through the moose. But even so, it did the jobs it's designed to do.
A couple of days later I saw a very large grizzly, and as I tried to find it through my rifle-scope from approximately 150 yards back, I was a little apprehensive thinking about the same ammo/bullet in the chamber, and the possibility of hitting the bear on the shoulder. But the bear disappeared in the brush before I could shoot it. I usually have 230-grain Lubalox-coated FS and also a few 275-grain A-Frame, just in case I have to shoot a bear through the shoulders. I just didn't have time to reload my rifle.
Adventures
New member
I've seen a few notes now about the accubonds expolding on impact and not even exiting on a perfect broadside shot. The don't seem to reatin thier weight much and i would stay away from the for large game. went on a caribou hunt last year with a guy and he shot one with his 375H&H at 100 yards and the entrace wound was horrific and the bullet didn't even make it to the opposite side of the rib cage.
Stick with the partition if they havn't let you down.
I had a similar discussion on here a few month ago and realized why change from a good thing.
Justin
Stick with the partition if they havn't let you down.
I had a similar discussion on here a few month ago and realized why change from a good thing.
Justin
Adventures
New member
BTW
BTW
I also shot a caribou this year myself at 350 yards with a .338 RUM 225 gr partitions and I found the bullet (due to my somewhat poor shot placement) it had lost it's top (which I also found) and together they weighed just under 200 grains. not too shaby and the bou didn't even take 1 step.
Just my .02
justin
BTW
I also shot a caribou this year myself at 350 yards with a .338 RUM 225 gr partitions and I found the bullet (due to my somewhat poor shot placement) it had lost it's top (which I also found) and together they weighed just under 200 grains. not too shaby and the bou didn't even take 1 step.
Just my .02
justin
I don't understand why nowdays people want their bullet to exit the animal. To me and the way I was taught, if the bullet expends all its energy inside the animal and the bullet penetrated the vitals the way we wanted it to penetrate and expanded the way we wanted the bullet to expand, that is better than the bullet not expending all its energy inside the animal and passing through the animal. I just started shooting again after a 15 year absence. What changed in the 15 years that I wasn't shooting?
If the bullet penetrates completely it usually means the bullet held together well and it provides an entrance and exit woud for blood to flow from. Makes it easier to track a wounded animal and aids in them bleeding out quicker. If you don't want to completely exit you are always asking youself.........gee...how far will it really penetrate? A better constructed bullet also allows you more shooting opportunities such as raking shots or frontal shots because you know the penetration will be there when you need it.
Make mine go through every time and I am happy.
Make mine go through every time and I am happy.
If the bullet penetrates completely, then it didn't expend all its energy inside the animal which could lead to wounded animals that need to be tracked.
If the bullet didn't exit, then you know exactly how far it penetrated, how far it expanded and how well it held together. Whereas if the bullet exited, you have no idea how well the bullet held together or how far it expanded.
I agree.
If mine doesn't go through all the way, then I am happy. I haven't hunted big game for about 18 years, but when I did, I followed the bullet path of every shot I took and studied how well the bullet performed. Back then I used a .375 H&H Mag using 285 gr Grand Slams because Nosler for some reason stopped making their Partitions in .375 at that time. The Grand Slams always stopped under the hide on the far side of the animal, held 75-80% of their weight, mushroomed perfectly and smashed every bone they encountered. The animal never EVER took another step, just dropped and died on the spot. The bullet used ALL of its 3000 -3500 ft.lbs. of energy inside the animal and came to a stop just inside the skin on the offside of the animal. The animals I shot with this load were Brown Bear and Moose. I used to use the Speer 235 gr bullet for Caribou and other smaller species.
The purpose of a controlled expansion bullet is to expand its diameter to a larger size causing massive hydrostatic shock in the secondary wound channel that will cause internal hemorageing and shock that will lead to the animals death. If the bullet exits the animal, then it didn't supply all of its energy inside the animal and then wasted some of its energy in the atmosphere after the animal was hit with the bullet.
I learned this from the makers of Bitteroot Bonded Bullets, Speer Grand Slam Series, Nosler Partition Bullets and Ron King (technical writer for Speer, CCI and Jack O'Connor).
So I still don't understand why people now days wants their bullet to pass through the animal.
AlleninAlaska
New member
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Foot pounds of energy is something that ammo manufacturers use to Razzle and Dazzle the consumer. They don't mean a whole lot in real life.
A 240 WBY with a 100 grain bullet produces more foot pounds of energy at 100 yards than the standard factory 405 grain load from the 45-70 does at the muzzle. Which would you prefer to use on a Moose though at 100 yards?
kenaifoto:
I began moose hunting late in life, after retiring from the military back in 1992 or so. The favorite moose bullet for my .338WM has been the 230-grain FS, and with this bullet I have killed each moose from 100 yards to 275 with one shot each. I only had one moose walking 25 yards after the shot, but all others, except for this one, and the first moose I ever killed, have dropped on the spot. I have only recovered one FS bullet so far, and one 250-grain A-Frame. The 250-grain Partition bullets I have used have also passed through moose, and have worked in similar fashion to the FS.
For moose hunting in bear country, I want maximum penetration. To break bone and shoulders I prefer a Barnes 3-Shock or a FS to a Partition, but the later woks great for lung shots.
I began moose hunting late in life, after retiring from the military back in 1992 or so. The favorite moose bullet for my .338WM has been the 230-grain FS, and with this bullet I have killed each moose from 100 yards to 275 with one shot each. I only had one moose walking 25 yards after the shot, but all others, except for this one, and the first moose I ever killed, have dropped on the spot. I have only recovered one FS bullet so far, and one 250-grain A-Frame. The 250-grain Partition bullets I have used have also passed through moose, and have worked in similar fashion to the FS.
For moose hunting in bear country, I want maximum penetration. To break bone and shoulders I prefer a Barnes 3-Shock or a FS to a Partition, but the later woks great for lung shots.
Premium bullets
Premium bullets
I've tried most of the premium bullets. Nosler partition, accubond, partition gold, swift A-frames, barnes-x, hornady interbond, winchester FS, and Trophy bonded bear claws. IMHO just use the premium bullet your rifle shoots best. They're all so far ahead of the conventional bullets it's truly amazing.
Premium bullets
I've tried most of the premium bullets. Nosler partition, accubond, partition gold, swift A-frames, barnes-x, hornady interbond, winchester FS, and Trophy bonded bear claws. IMHO just use the premium bullet your rifle shoots best. They're all so far ahead of the conventional bullets it's truly amazing.
