Ruger 77 mkII in 450 Marlin

[elmerkeithclone]

Guys this is a take off from the 338 shortened topic.

I just got off the phone with the fine folk at Sturm-Ruger. My first contact was with President Sanetti's office and was then forwarded to Public Relations Director Kevin Reese. We conversed about the possibilities of chambering the 77 MKII in 450 Marlin.

The topic of 450 Marlin in a bolt action rifle has come up several times on this forum. With all of the features that the 77MKII All Weather have going for them.... they would be a perfect match.

Rugers marketing folk are going to give this some concideration. They are also going to be looking at this forum for some feed back from you guys. So kabluewy and the rest let 'em know what you think of this idea!

 

[ak257]

I have a .450M built on a 77 MK II action by Clark Custom. I'd be interested in seeing Ruger come out with one just to see how they compare. I like mine so well it was what I took to Namibia last fall for kudu. It didn't let me down!

 

[Paul H]

In my opinionated opinion I can't see housing a 45 caliber rifle chambering smaller than a 458 win mag in a bolt gun. The reason the 45-70 and 450 Marlin are popular in lever rifles, is they are the most power you can practically fit in that platform. Not so with bolt guns, and bolt guns give the option of flatter trajectories.

I'm quite happy that Ruger chambered the 350 rem mag in their short action M77, as it is a superb package. That said, methinks 375 caliber is the max practical in a compact bolt action. Once you bigger than that, you either get unshootable recoil levels, or loose out on the velocity that make the bigger chamberings really shine.

 

[ak257]

...... Once you bigger than that, you either get unshootable recoil levels, or loose out on the velocity that make the bigger chamberings really shine.

I have to disagree with this. My bolt is much more pleasant to shoot than either my Marlin GG or BLR in 450M. With a heavy barrel and laminate stock the bolt is not exactly lightweight and tends to tame the recoil quite a bit. I've experimented with some pretty hot loads out of the bolt and have yet to find one that is "unshootable." But then again, I'm not really recoil sensitive and don't find much of anything that is unshootable to me. The Barnes 300 grain XFB, a spitzer-type bullet, shows a lot of promise out of the bolt, but I still haven't found the combination of velocity and accuracy that suits me.

 

[Paul H]

I should have elaborated, at the performance level I'd want from a 45 caliber bolt gun, ie 350-400 gr @ 2400 fps, a 7# short action would be unshootable. Well, I could shoot it, but I'd rather not. If you make the gun heavy enough to be shootable, ie 9-10#'s, no reason to build it on a compact action. I have a 458 Lott that was built with a Ruger #1H heavy taper barrel cut to 22", perfect balance and very shootable. That said it is a heavy gun.

I like compact rifles in the 6-7# range, but there is only so much recoil one can take in a package of that weight.

 

[BrownBear]

Back in the early 70's I had a 458 American 2-inch made up. Been a long time, but as I recall 400 grain bullets just topped 2000 fps and the 350's went a little higher in moderate loads. I had a very straight claro walnut stock with a wide butt installed. It weighed a couple of ounces over 7 pounds bare and right at 8 pounds with a Lyman Alaskan scope and mounts.

With the straight stock, recoil was entirely manageable in spite of the comparatively light weight. It was noticeably less than the 8 1/2 pound 375 H&H I owned at the same time.

I'm willing to bet that if you get a 450 Marlin made in that weight range, it will seem to kick less than a Marlin lever due to the differences in stock design and weight.

Interesting project. Makes me regret letting the 458 2-inch get away from me.

 

[Murphy]

Ruger and the 450 Marlin

Ruger and the 450 Marlin

I think the 450 Marlin in a good bolt is a great idea. We don't really need 500 grs at 2000 fps all the time. If we could get a short and hardy carbine in a potent, close range caliber, it would be well received. I would like to see a short, 18"- 20" barrel with good sight. Maybe a beefed up version of the Frontier rifle with the forward scout scope mount and quick acquisition sights. Basically a "Guide Gun" in a strong bolt action. Factory loads with the excellent Hornady 350 gr flat nose for every day use and Buffalo Bore or some such for serious duty work when sorting out alder bush from tooth and claw. I do like the Marlin 1895 rifle but I am not accustomed to a lever gun and that would never be my choice should I be faced with a situation where a quick decisive shot, in thick cover, were required.

The old model 600/660 Remington in the 350 mag and the similar 673 Guide Gun were/are a desirable conscept, but are not offered in fight stopping calibers. The 350 Rem Mag, as good as it can be, is not the equal of a 45 bore. And, I think a lot of the appeal for the 350 is in the compact rifle and not the caliber. In other words that's the biggest caliber offered in such a package. I believe if Ruger would offer a good MK II Guide Gun, it should be in calibers with a decisive punch. And in keeping with that, a short action for a little quicker cycling speed and rapid acquisition sights just to keep things moving . A 2" cartridge case with a loaded round overall lenght of about 2.8" will fill this bill and could be necked to any caliber from 35 to 45. Maybe even a 416 Express, or standardized as a 416 Ruger would be a good offering. Here in Alaska, where hunting can be in very heavy cover, and whether for moose or brown bears, a short quick pointing rifle can make the difference between getting food or becoming food.

Some of my favorite rifles are handy carbines and that is true for many hunters. A less cumbersome package that comes up quickly and points easy yet delivers a decisive punch, that's what we need.

To give due consideration to the excellent Steyr, both in the scout configuration and pro Hunter, their 376 caliber is an oddity with it's in-between diameter and 60 mm case length requires an action more the length of the 30-06, or standard long action for proper function. Also the Steyr is not the rugged format the Ruger MK II action. The 376 Steyr is an excellent round and would certainly offer the attributes described, but it's non standard case diminsions may exclude it from the Ruger Guide Gun caliber list.

I believe the Ruger Model 77 MK II is the strongest and most rugged U.S. made bolt action rifle. With a strong and light weight synthetic stock, a low maintenance stainless barreled action, with a compact and quick pointing package, in fight stopping calibers, we would have the ultimate "Guide Gun".
Where can I order mine? Good shootin'.

Murphy

 

[ak257]

I'll weigh my 450's this weekend to see how they compare. The bolt does have a fairly straight stock and with its heavier weight does not seem bad at all recoil-wise.

 

[whateveri8]

On the 458x2" round - A 458 Win mag cut to 2" will chamber in your 458 Lott Ruger allowing you three choices of rounds. Now you can "justify" spending the money Fred Meyers is asking for that 458 Lott 458x2" light loads for anything that can be hunted, 458 win mag for that "affordable" big boom, and 458 Lott for that cannon barrage effect that only a true fan of the Lott can love after squeezing off a few rounds. Any 45 caliber rifle is a wonderful thing.

 

[Paul H]

Not wise to load 458X2" in a 458 Lott, the chamber tapers and the case will be rattling around, and you'll have a long bullet jump. You'll also put a bunch of fouling into chamber which could prevent 458 lott ammo from freely chambering and extracting.

I've had a couple of 458 lotts and they are great guns. You don't have to use 458 win or shorter rounds, just put less powder in. The beuaty of the lott is it can be loaded down to 45 colt pistol levels, or all the way up.

 

[whateveri8]

very good point!

Ive ran about 20 rounds through my Ruger. I'll look it over THANKS!! you may have just saved my Ruger barrel!!

 

[Paul H]

You'd likely have to put a couple hundred rounds through it before it would be an issue. I have most of the articles printed about the 458 Lott over the past 30 odd years, and one of them discussed the issue of eroding the chamber when running 458 win mag ammo in it after some couple hundred rounds. My take on it is, if you find yourself in deepest darkest Africa with your lott and no ammo, no problem stoking it with 458 win mag fodder. Asside from that, all other use should be with 458 Lott sized brass.

If you haven't started handloading for it, and want a mild practice load, get some speer 350 gr's, a pound of Reloader 7, and work up between 76 and 80 gr until you find what shoots best in your rifle. Velocity will be in the 2400-2500 fps range, and it'll feel like your shooting a 375 H&H.

Save the 500 gr loads for pachaderms, and "friends" who want to shoot it.

 

[Murphy]

Ruger 450 M Guide Gun

Ruger 450 M Guide Gun

Hey guys,

I thought this thread was about encouraging Ruger to chamber a short action M77 MK II in 450 Mariln caliber?

Not about shooting a 458 WM short in a Lott chamber or about how some of you would not be able to shoot a 450 in a seven pound rifle!!

You can't shoot a 450 Marlin in a 458 WM chamber now and no one factory chambers the 458 American and no one will because it can be fired in a 7mm STW or 8mm RM chamber.

Why would we say a 450 marlin is unshootable in a seven pound rifle, It would by far more pleasant to shoot than in the Marlin lever due to a better stock design. It isn't for everybody, but neither is the Marlin lever gun.

Boy, sometimes these threads really wander! Shoot straight!

Murphy

 

[leahy]

A 77 All weather in 450? do it!

A 77 All weather in 450? do it!

Or a 45- 70 I'd love either one for a close in gun.
gettinga 77 in 350.
Rob

 

[Kabluewy]

450 Ruger 77

450 Ruger 77

I hope Ruger does offer the all weather 77 in 450 Marlin. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who want the performance of the 45-70, hot or mild, in a strong bolt action, rather than a lever or single shot. As I indicated in the previous threads on this subject, some people, like me, are just not comfortable with a lever rifle – as a serious rifle. I think the bolt action offers potential not available elsewhere.

Ruger is going to have to get in a hurry to offer one before mine is already built. Hopefully they offer it with the correct twist, and barrel length of 20/20.

 

[BrownBear]

Loading the 450 in a bolt opens some interesting ground no one has mentioned yet: Shooting spitzer bullets. It's hard to estimate whether there would be significant trajectory gains at 450 velocities, but it might be a way to stretch effective range a bit.

At one time I experimented with 400 grain Barnes X and 400 flats in a 458 Win and 460 Weatherby at 200, 300 and 400 yards. It was a long time ago and I don't remember the numbers, but trajectory gains were significant as range stretched. A friend came up with some 600 grain custom spitzers somewhere. Couldn't get enough velocity out of the 458 to satisfy me, but if there was ever a need for a 1000-yard 460, this would be the bullet. Of course, you had better hit with the first shot, because it took a while to regain your senses for the second!

That 400 grain Barnes X would sure be fun to play with in the Marlin. We're not talking about turning it into a serious long range number, but it might ease the midrange issues if you were sighted for 200 yards, for example.

 

[Paul H]

The trouble with the 400 gr X in a 350 marlin is you'd be lucky to get 1800 fps, which is the minimum velocity you'd want for impact. The barnes X bullets are very long, and would eat up serious powder capacity in the 450 case.

Now a 350 gr speer or hornady @ 2200 fps would be interesting, and those bullets are plenty tough for a 1800-2200 fps impact speeds.

I didn't mean to come across as such a downer on my assesments, but I've shot several guide guns and bolt guns in various 45 caliber chamberings, and think they both have their niche.

 

[grizz106]

I tend to think that most bush wanderin Alaskans would very much like a 450 Marlin in Rugers Mk II-what a good combination. That is a potent round for in close hunting and I suspect that to be a very good seller. Come on Ruger bring it on!!! I'll buy 2 of em.

I would stick to hardcast BTB's or the Kodiak bullet as my first choice- don't know if NorthFork is making any bullet for this but it would be dandy.

regards,

 

[Kabluewy]

I tend to think that most bush wanderin Alaskans would very much like a 450 Marlin in Rugers Mk II-what a good combination. That is a potent round for in close hunting and I suspect that to be a very good seller. Come on Ruger bring it on!!! I'll buy 2 of em.

I would stick to hardcast BTB's or the Kodiak bullet as my first choice- don't know if NorthFork is making any bullet for this but it would be dandy.

regards,

Grizz,
North Fork makes three bullets which have potential in the 450 Ruger - 350gr FP, 350 gr SS, and 400 gr SS. It's really nice to not be limited to FP bullets, although they would be good choices too. There are so many good 458 bullets to work with in 350 - 405 gr . Also interesting is the Swift 400 gr., and Woodleigh has a 405 gr FP. I think Barnes makes a 350 gr TSX, which may allow for better powder space than their longer 400 gr. Granted these bullets, loaded heavy, would pack punch at both ends of the rifle, but I think its purpose would be served very well. It's easier to recover from recoil than a mauling.

I sort of think of this rifle combo as something to carry as a preference to a heavy, large bore pistol; being short, handy and offering much more thump than can be achieved from any handgun that can be shot by even an extraordinary person. Plus it can serve a real hunting rifle, at several levels, not just a bush-whacker.

 

[grizz106]

good info Kabluey, I am more FP minded as I reload for a couple of .45-70's. I do not have a 40 bore or over perse' so my understanding or knowledge of these bullets that are available is pretty much nil. Yes the pic in my mind of a carbine like @ 20" is quite appealing in the synthetic and stainless-of course it will have some whip but that is fine. Bring it on! NorthForks will be the creme-dela-creme of bullets for the likes of this.
I recently began to "ponder" the 450 Alaskan aka. 450-348AI and find this intriguing at this time. It would save money and work to just buy this rifle if Ruger would make a go ahead and make a small run to see if the market will take it. Obviously the strength of the Ruger will be a great appreciation with the use of this rifle and down the road as a inheritance.

cheers,