Remington vs Winchester

[cjustinm]

i wish i had a picture of my amazing accuracy out of my mini-14 the other day....shooting pmc 55gr fmj's almost all the shots landed on the 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper @ 100 yrds i repeat ALMOST all the shots..thank god you can buy magazines that hold more than 20 rounds. it has a crisp clean 1/4 ton trigger pull and guaranteed to never hit the same area twice ensuring the most damage to whatever your shooting at possible. gotta love it. i suppose that why ruger isn't in the title of this thread.:lol:

 

[Smokey]

Always look for the positives - at least it didn't jam?

 

[cjustinm]

i can honestly say i have NEVER had it jam even after shooting a whole bunch of wolf ammo pmc ammo and whatever cheap stuff i could find. I've had the action pretty coated with ice and snow and still no issues.

 

[Smokey]

Well, couldn't take it anymore today and grabbed the Rem 700 in 280 and went out to install my new Custom Dial "thingy".
Now, I don't have a favorite brand of gun for sure - I love many as long as they shoot well! But, I have to fess up I shot my best ever group today with a centerfire - .311in and I was fighting a 10 - 22mph gusty wind!
So, chalk up one more today for the Rem 700 bandwagon....
The Yellar and black tgt is a string I shot at 200 yards to see what effect the wind would have - red bullseye is .75in with first ring 2.50in...

 

[beartooth]

I do like the looks of that rifle and cudos to you for shooting good in that wind. Cool

 

[Smokey]

Thanks BT,
I bought one of the Leupold custom turret scopes for this puppy and I specified 40 degrees as the optimum temp I would likely hunt - and sure nuff it was 42 today so couldn't resist trying to sight it in proper - hated the wind but some days its just the way it is. Now on a positive note I usually do not let the wind stop me for practice - yes maybe for super accurate sight in days but I feel I want to know my weapon and my limits in the wind.
What this target clearly shows is if the wind is calm I could shoot many more yards - however - put me on say a mtn goat at 400 yards with 20 mph winds and the possibility of the shot drifting way outa the kill zone is very high and not one I would take...
I think for anyone wanting to be a long range shooter practice under all conditions is a must so one can set their own limits - that is far different than what the gun or caliber may have potential for...

 

[elmerkeithclone]

I have enjoyed both hunting and competitive shooting with shotgun and archery, and as I have aged I am now enjoying more time "at the bench" playing with rifles and loads. I think as we age, and our time afield hunting slows down, our desire to still enjoy the shooting sports burns brightly and working up accurate loads and guns is just one more way to continue the love of the sport!
I would have to say competitive archery parallels fine rifle shooting in many ways.
To win an indoor championship usually an archer had to shoot a perfect round of 60 in the bullseye at 20 yards - then the one ( if there were ties ) that had the most X's ( small circle inside the bullseye ) would take the crown. My best win was with 57 X's - much like hi power rifles I would think. Learning how to get all you can outa the equipment and yourself is the name of the game for sure!
There are a lot of great contributors on this site and I thank you all for the inputs and entertainment my friends!
Randy

Have you got a pig load worked up for that rig yet Smokey?

 

[back country]

I can't leave this one alone - camparing a Remington to a Winchester in a bolt gun is like comparing a 65 Corvette to a 97 Dodge/Cummins - they are really best at two totally different things IMO - I really like my 700's for varmint rifles but I won't give up my model 70's for huntin' iron ! I think that sometimes "people" mistake the 700's reputation as "the most inherently accurate action" with it 's speedy lock time and tubular shape for a rifle that "should" always be the best at the range at any time - By the same token, the model 70 has features that make it arguably every bit as "bomb proof" as a commercial Mauser '98 AND user friendly in "hunting" situations - to Any dangerous game hunter who states "I've never had a jam or failed extraction from a model 700 Rem" I say, it only takes one ... To the varmint shooter who would "struggle" with single feeds all day long on a PD town using a Model 70 I say "to each his own" - EVERY other bolt gun design or style falls somewhere in between these two, IMHO

 

[beartooth]

I would not compare the Model 70 in toughness to the 98 mauser but we get your point.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

OK guys, let's get real. Most of you have a lot more gun experience than I do which leaves me scratching my head on this thread. When it comes to out of the box accuracy for the big manufacturer rifles, Savage and Howa (Vanguard) have the corner on that market. When you buy an off the shelf mass production rifle you are rolling the dice and chances are they will come up snake eyes.

OK, so this thread is about Rem vs Win 70. I just picked up my first M70 in 22-250 Coyote a few weeks ago at a gun show. Haven't had the chance to fire it yet, but the first thing I did when I got it home was loosen the action screws and look under the hood. I was very pleasantly surprised. Beefy integral recoil lug, flat bottomed receiver. Ingeniously simple trigger mechanism that breaks like glass... and this one is tuned to about < 1 lb. Very sweet. The only thing I didn't like about it was the safety which is a bit difficult and noisy to operate. Not a bid deal when it comes to red misting rodents, but definitely not cool for PA deer hunting. I'm not sure just how well this rifle will shoot, but if doesn't do real well, I'm sure a new barrel squared to the action will fix that just fine.

Now I have two Rem Senderos that shoot just great and if this M70 22-250 does as well, I'll be very happy. But the Senderos are fitted with a heavy varmint contour barrel and bedded in a full aluminum bedded HS Precision stock. The Coyote has a med varmint contour barrel and bedded in a laminate wood stock, and I have no idea what condition the throat and bore are in.

So what's the point? What results is the guy buying the average BDL or SPS going to get vs the average M70 in the year 2011 when CEO's are making the biggest bonuses ever while the average working guy is unemployed or just hanging on. A little research leads me to believe that Rem QC is going down hill big time, but hey that's just another "internet" rumor. Hmmm... isn't this an internet thread? I wonder what all the anecdotal comments here are worth? It's your $$$... do with it what you want. I'm not buying anymore Remingtons, and if I had to choose between a Rem and an M70, I would pick the M70, because IME, it's a better platform for a build. For now, the S&W/Vanguard/Howa's get my $$$. and I think the Savage guys are getting a good return for their investment.

Just another internet opinion

 

[MontanaRifleman]

One more thing... I'm not loyal to Brand Names, I'm loyal to Quality, Results and Customer Service

 

[elmerkeithclone]

MR, I bought 2 of the Weatherby Vanguards a while back. They are both of the 20 inch carbine version. One is in 243 and the other in 308.

I bought both of these rifles because they were very inexpensive. Notice I didn't say cheap and their is a big difference. The fact that I have 3 grandsons and a 4th on the way played into going with the carbines.

I'll cut to the chase....you are exactly right! These are a whole lot of gun for the money. We had a beautiful day here in Iowa today and I spent the whole afternoon at the range. I took both Vanguards along. My last outing was the first trip out for the 308 and the loads I fired in it were left overs that were tailored for another rifle and it still shot around an inch and a half with a lucky one that went an inch and a quarter in this rifle. Since that initial session I have tailored some loads just for this 308. These rounds are just off the lands where as the others were jumping a pretty good gap to get to the rifling. I also took 5 each of 8 different powders/ charges all pushing the same 168 grain Sierra bullet. In the end I had a couple of loads that shot around an inch. One with Varget powder and one with IMR 4064.

The barrel did heat up after just 4 rounds but thats typical of even the high dollar light weights.

By the way I have a straight 4X scope on this 308 and an inch is probably about as good as I can do with a 4X @ 100 yards.

The 243 was shooting up some store bought PMC 100 grainers that had been on the shelf for a long while. I was more or less emptying the cases and breaking in the rifle at the same time. I have been a 243 shooter for years and have come to learn that that particular load has never shot well in any 243 that I've ever tried them in and they were around an inch and a half in this Vanguard. I'll do the same thing with some loads for it as I did for the 308 and let you know how that turns out.

I might add that these are $350 dollar pack in the brush hunting rifles and therefore any group around an inch makes my day!

 

[beartooth]

One more thing... I'm not loyal to Brand Names, I'm loyal to Quality, Results and Customer Service

I like what you wrote for the most part and I agree whole heartedly with this shoot final post. Also, I agree with your major post that hunters an shooters do get a lot of bang for their buck with a Savage. Also, at this time in Remington's history, I would prefer a Model 70 over a 700 for hunting purposes. Like everything else this is an opinion but it is one from at least that comes from years of real experience at the bench, in load development and in the field getting results.

 

[back country]

beartooth - Yes, I realize that in my fervor I may have gotten "a little" carried away - it is a given that commercial Mausers are proof tested at 100,000 psi ! I've been doing some research on bolt guns and it appears that the Ruger M77 is very well thought of and has a simplistic trigger a bit comparable to the old Model 70 (?) those Vanguard/Howa actions are pretty good too, especially for the asking price ! Of late I am shooting & hunting 2 Kimber Montana's, a 325 WSM and a 308, and I am (was) thoroughly impressed with the entire firearm until I closely examined the trigger group - Now, please don't get me wrong as they are well made and break clean but to my eyes they appear to be "better made" Rem 700 triggers (albeit better engineering) my point being they are NOT "simple" and, like so many other things in MY life nowadays, I LOVE "simple" - (maybe this is a message for me to stay out of the mud and cold ...)

 

[MaximumPenetration]

One more thing... I'm not loyal to Brand Names, I'm loyal to Quality, Results and Customer Service

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I have purchased 2 new model 700's in the last 2 years. Not because of the brand name on them, but because of the top quality, unmatched accuracy, and superb customer service. My rifles outshoot the new rifles friends have bought in other models over the last couple years. Of the 8 model 700's I currently own, the most recent 2 are by far the highest quality. And they are both 1/2 MOA. Guess they're doing something right. Oh, and I prefer the push feed over CRF.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

MR, I bought 2 of the Weatherby Vanguards a while back. They are both of the 20 inch carbine version. One is in 243 and the other in 308.

I bought both of these rifles because they were very inexpensive. Notice I didn't say cheap and their is a big difference. The fact that I have 3 grandsons and a 4th on the way played into going with the carbines.

I'll cut to the chase....you are exactly right! These are a whole lot of gun for the money. We had a beautiful day here in Iowa today and I spent the whole afternoon at the range. I took both Vanguards along. My last outing was the first trip out for the 308 and the loads I fired in it were left overs that were tailored for another rifle and it still shot around an inch and a half with a lucky one that went an inch and a quarter in this rifle. Since that initial session I have tailored some loads just for this 308. These rounds are just off the lands where as the others were jumping a pretty good gap to get to the rifling. I also took 5 each of 8 different powders/ charges all pushing the same 168 grain Sierra bullet. In the end I had a couple of loads that shot around an inch. One with Varget powder and one with IMR 4064.

The barrel did heat up after just 4 rounds but thats typical of even the high dollar light weights.

By the way I have a straight 4X scope on this 308 and an inch is probably about as good as I can do with a 4X @ 100 yards.

The 243 was shooting up some store bought PMC 100 grainers that had been on the shelf for a long while. I was more or less emptying the cases and breaking in the rifle at the same time. I have been a 243 shooter for years and have come to learn that that particular load has never shot well in any 243 that I've ever tried them in and they were around an inch and a half in this Vanguard. I'll do the same thing with some loads for it as I did for the 308 and let you know how that turns out.

I might add that these are $350 dollar pack in the brush hunting rifles and therefore any group around an inch makes my day!

EKC, my first rifle back in PA was a plain jane Rem BDL in 243, I think a 20" bbl, whatever the standrd was? It was a sweet shooting gun, and as I recall it shot about an 1" and a half @ a 100 (iron sights) with factrory Rem ammo... plenty good for close quarter PA deer hunting. I hunted with it a year and shot a couple of deer with it, joined the AF, got sent to CA, and when I got back from target practice one day, I found a crack in the bolt sleeve, after about 100 rounds total through it. Rem said to send it in, and they replaced the bolt. I had bought a S&W 1500 (Howa) 7RM after sending the 243 off and had them send the 243 to my younger brother who didn't have a rifle at the time... gun laws sure have changed since then (82).

I still have the S&W 1500 7RM and it has basically been a closet queen for almost 30 years... probably less than 200 rounds through it... and IMO, it is what a bolt rifle should be. I stripped the high gloss poly off it and Danish oil finished to satin and had the shiney blue action and barrel parkerized. The last time I shot it about 2 or 3 years ago it made one ragged hole with three shots @ 100. These were about 10 year old handloads of 160 NP's for my M77 7RM which was my go to hunting rifle. I had to seat the bullets a little deeper to shoot them from the S&W because the M77 had a little longer throat. As I was single feeding them on the bench, they required some force to close the bolt. Unbeknown to me, the bullets had seized to the neck over the years (no crimp) and when I passed the cartridges through the RCBS plain jane seater, I had wrinkled the necks and shoulders slightly. After I had shot the what I'm guessing was about a .3" or so group, I finally discovered the reason for the difficult feeding. On top of that, this action is in the factory walnut stock with no pillars or bedding of any kind, and... the barrel is in contact with the forearm, and the swivel stud screw. Interesting to say the least. Since then I've floated the barrel. I've got a Butler Creek synthetic stock on a Vanguard I picked up at the gun also, that I'm going to put on the S&W just to shoot it again for kicks. I plan to use the action for a build in the not too distant future and get a better stock for it. Possibly a 6.5-300 Dakota. Broughton is making the barrel and should soon be delivered, 5C, 8 Twist, 26", med varmint contour. I'll have the barrel salt bath nitrided to keep it from burning out in about 500 rounds. This will be a 500 yd to 1K PD/Coyote regulator.

Anyway, I think the old S&W 1500's may be the best of the Howa actions. A different bolt shroud than the Vanguards and the triggers are very crisp. I got one in 270 at the gun show for a build also and I have both triggers tuned to close to a glass breaking 1 lb. Very simple to do with these unlike many of the Vanguard triggers which are the same trigger as far as I can tell. I'll be keeping my eyes open for others.

The regular Vanguards, as you know, are guaranteed for sub 1.5", and many shoot a lot better than that, especially with a little load work. So yeah, for the $$$ they are a great deal. My smith picked up a NIB Sub MOA 300 Wby for me that has a factory shot target that he estimates at about .35". It was going to be for a 300-338 RUM wildcat build (have changed my mind several times now), but the COAL for the bullet I am using (GS 177) just will not work in the Howa action as a repeater. So, I am going to sell the 300 WBY (if you know anyone in the market) and find a used 700 doner and put a Wyatt's extended mag box in it. This is all consistent with my terminal case of velocityitis.

Back to the Rems and M70's... The Remingtons have been good rifles over the years, but I wouldn't exactly say that I have been wow'd by them. IMO, they've been your average work horse rifle and I think we all know they have had issues over the years. Your experience with the TRG's is great and glad you got a couple of good shooters. So far, yours is the most positive review of the TRG's that I've read. I'm still struggling with that triangle barrel is stronger thing.... they look kinda cool. The M70 action really impresses me and when I look at a long gun, I look at the action. IME, it is better than the 700 in every way except the awkward and noisy safety. Integrated recoil lug, flat bottom receiver, definitely superior trigger, claw extractor, CRPF, fixed Sako like ejector and probably overall stronger, at least that's what my naked eye tells me. Maybe I'm missing something, but other than the safety function, I can't see were the 700 has anything on the M70.

As far as accuracy goes, that is very anecdotal, and also depends a lot on version, i.e., Sendero vs SPS. Some of the 700 versions are very accurate out of the box, mostly because of the stock and barrel components used... not sure if they pay more attention to the action? But for the average, BDL's, SPS's, etc., accuracy is a crap shoot, and for every testimony of good accuracy, you can find another just the opposite. On average, the average 700 is not going to be a sub MOA shooter. If they were, they would be advertised to be and priced accordingly like their more accurate counterparts. I'll be glad to give 2 to 1 odds that any off the shelf Coyote will out shoot and off the shelf BDL 90% of the time. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Now next to a VSF, all bets are off.

To wrap it up, any factory rifle I buy in the future will be for build platforms were I KNOW what level of performance to expect. Hand crafted excellence. And I hope to collect a handfull of handcrafted tack driving performers because I just love that ragged hole look, especially at 200 yds or more.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I like what you wrote for the most part

Oh yeah... which part didn't you like??? Just kiddin BT

and I agree whole heartedly with this shoot final post. Also, I agree with your major post that hunters an shooters do get a lot of bang for their buck with a Savage. Also, at this time in Remington's history, I would prefer a Model 70 over a 700 for hunting purposes. Like everything else this is an opinion but it is one from at least that comes from years of real experience at the bench, in load development and in the field getting results.

Yeah, we all have opinions to go along with various parts of our anatomy. Heard and read a lot of good stuff about the Savages... seems like about 20 years ago they had a pretty bad rep. Glad to see they are putting out a great product with so many very satisfied customers. The best answer to CS, is quality out of the box.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I have purchased 2 new model 700's in the last 2 years. Not because of the brand name on them, but because of the top quality, unmatched accuracy, and superb customer service. My rifles outshoot the new rifles friends have bought in other models over the last couple years. Of the 8 model 700's I currently own, the most recent 2 are by far the highest quality. And they are both 1/2 MOA. Guess they're doing something right. Oh, and I prefer the push feed over CRF.

Very cool, glad your experience with Remington has been so good. And I like push feed too, for single shot feeding.

 

[Sir]

Remingtons vs. ......

Remingtons vs. ......

I like Remingtons, having owned more than a few. Simple, dependable, but in no way glitzy or spiffy, just a hammer of a tool.

I can concur with Savages. My buddy bought a new .30-06 tactical and on the bench, it would not shoot a cloverleaf, ever. It shot one holers, not ragged half inch holes, but five shots into one hole. I've heard a lot of guys talk about it, but not very often have seen it. Even at a couple of hundred yards, dead centering an orange marker sticker first shot every time was no challenge. Quite a remarkable rifle for the money. Heavy, but heck, it was a laser beam.

I've succumbed to the CRF bug. I got a new to me Winchester Classic 70 in .375. It just seems like the right thing to do.

 

[Sir]

i wish i had a picture of my amazing accuracy out of my mini-14 the other day....shooting pmc 55gr fmj's almost all the shots landed on the 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper @ 100 yrds i repeat ALMOST all the shots..thank god you can buy magazines that hold more than 20 rounds. it has a crisp clean 1/4 ton trigger pull and guaranteed to never hit the same area twice ensuring the most damage to whatever your shooting at possible. gotta love it. i suppose that why ruger isn't in the title of this thread.:lol:

All you have to do is search "Accurizing Mini 14" and you'll have yourself a cheap tack driver when the UPS shows up! I dislike the factory Ruger mini14s because of their sloppy groups but I've seen them perform with a little money and a little lovin'.