Remington vs Winchester

[elmerkeithclone]

I spent a little time a while back working up loads for 5 different rifles then friday evening I loaded for the new kid on the block...the dandy little Remington 221 Fireball.

I spent several hours on saturday and sunday shooting from the bench to reap the fruits of my labor.

This is how it panned out! Best of 3... 3 shot groups @ 100 yards!

Remington 700VTR 308-168 gr Sierra HPBT/ Varget 46.0 gr= .475", Mueller 3x9 set on 9X

Remington 700VTR 243-80 gr Sierra BTSP/ IMR 4064 44.2 gr= .575", Nikon 3x9 set on 9X

Remington 700 LVSF 221 Fireball-50 gr Hornady SP/ R7 18.2 gr= .380 (only load tried in this gun)
Mueller 8x25 set on 25

Winchester(FN) 70 All Weather 308-168 gr Sierra HPBT/IMR 4895 44.5 gr=.1.25", Nikon 2X7 set on 7( A little frustrated with this gun). The same load that went .475 in the VTR went almost 2 inches in this gun!)

Winchester(FN) 70 Feather Weight 243-80 gr Sierra BTSP/Varget 37.5=.760, Redfield 3X9 set on 9( I killed several coyotes with this rifle this winter)

FN Boat Rifle 308-168 gr Sierra HPBT/IMR 4064 45.3= .650 Leupold 4X12 set on 12( belongs to a friend)

Then 2 more guns went to the range this morning!

Weatherby Vanguard 308 carbine 168 gr Sierra HPBT/ Varget 46.5= 1.53" Nikon 4X( These were the first and only 3 rounds fired from this gun.....I really wanted to shoot the mauser and rain was coming).

Custom 98 Mauser 338-06(courtesy of oldrgr)/Hornady 200 gr sp/Varget 56.2 = 2.10" (only load tried...rain) Weaver K2.5

The 98 is a beautiful gun of the nicest walnut and high luster German bluing. .210 was good considering it was getting ready to rain and I was hurrying(2.5X scope).......no way in heck was this pride and joy gun getting rained on!

Of the 8 guns range fired over a 3 day period the three gish dern push feed Remingtons stole the show for accuracy but they're all lucky that I didn't drag the old Stevens 200 out from behind the seat! Ok maybe not but it always shoots 3/4 of an inch with anything...with a $25 Tasco scope!

 

[Paul H]

I used to be firmly on the crf bandwagon.

Now rem 700's are the bolt action of choice in my safe, and that trend looks to continue. I do still have some ruger m77 mkII's, and they shoot fairly well. That said I like light accurate rifles that are reasonably priced, remington seems to have nailed that combo in the 700.

 

[elmerkeithclone]

I hear what your saying Paul! The 221 Fireball was the only one of these Remingtons that was mine! The VTR's were on loan from the shop......they're mine now! I gave the 308 to my son to use and kept the 243 for me!

I worked up some more loads for the 243 VTR and today I shot an honest .320 3 shot group using a Hornady 95gr SST with Varget powder.....I also put an 8X25 Mueller scope on it! It will be the combo that I use on windy days for the 100 meter USBR stuff this summer! The Fireball will get the nod on calm days!

I traded the Winchester All Weather and some boot for these Remmies!

That makes it 3 for 3 for these factory Remingtons that will shoot < 1/2 inch. I'm a believer and think I can get over the push feed thing at that rate

 

[Smitty of the North]

EKC:
How do you like the Triangle barrel?

Do you think that it helps with accuracy?

Smitty of the North

 

[elmerkeithclone]

I like the triangle barrel cuz it's different!. They claim it helps with keeping the harmonics the same shot to shot because it's stiffer! I know that I have zeroed in a couple of others besides these two and they all shoot <1/2 inch.

I have never been a big Remington fan but I have three of them now that I really like!

The triangle barrel comes from the factory with a built in nonremovable muzzle brake that consists of three big slots in the top of the barrel. Remington could have saved themselves some hassel by omitting this brake and saved the consumer a few bucks at the counter. I can't see for the life of me why a 223,243 or 308 needs a muzzle brake. I guess they look "cool" and cool sells!

 

[.338 mag.]

I don't have any center fire Remington's that out shoot my old or new Model 70 Winchesters, not one. Course I don't own any center fire bolt action Remington's either. I am not surprised by your results. They are accurate rifles for sure.

 

[Alangaq]

I have actually never had a Remington that shot poorly. About 8 years ago I picked up a Rem 700 BDL short action .243 at the Palmer Lions Gun show for $300. The thing looked brand new but the guy selling it was an honest fellow and was telling eveyone who picked it up that it wouldnt shoot worth a darn. I looked down the barrel and noted that it was totaly loaded up with copper and told him that was likely the problem. He told me he didnt have time or inclination to mess with it and that for $300 it would be mine. I took that rifle home, pluged the chamber and filled the barrel up with Hoppies #9 and just kept topping it off every day for about 2 weeks. Once I got all of that copper out of it, I mounted a scope and took it down to bunny creek. Believe it or not, I cam home with a target, shot with that rifle and using factory Federal ammo, that was 5 shots into less than 1/2" at 100 yards!

The sad part of that story.... I had been at that gun show for one purpose only.... find a rifle for my young nephue, and his mother had supplied me with $400 to make it happen. So... reluctantly, begrudingly, sadly... I handed over the best shooting $300 rifle I have ever seen in my life to a 14 year old boy! Ha! Of course he now thinks I am the best uncle on earth, and thats worth quite a bit!

Now I have had more than one Winchester that wouldnt shoot worth a darn initially, but after some tinkering they came around and were plenty good for my needs.

 

[Smokey]

EKC, one thing to remember is the shooter also makes a huge impact in the mix.
You are a very good shot and my beliefs are simple:
A great gun will seldom make a bad shooter better - however a great shooter can make a bad gun shoot better!
Now, combine a great shooter with a great gun and you get the picture!
Nice post.

 

[Smitty of the North]

I like the triangle barrel cuz it's different!. They claim it helps with keeping the harmonics the same shot to shot because it's stiffer! I know that I have zeroed in a couple of others besides these two and they all shoot <1/2 inch.

I have never been a big Remington fan but I have three of them now that I really like!

The triangle barrel comes from the factory with a built in nonremovable muzzle brake that consists of three big slots in the top of the barrel. Remington could have saved themselves some hassel by omitting this brake and saved the consumer a few bucks at the counter. I can't see for the life of me why a 223,243 or 308 needs a muzzle brake. I guess they look "cool" and cool sells!

I like the triangle barrels too, simply because they look good, and I'm inclined to believe that they, may indeed promote accuracy.

Does this "Brake" function like "Porting", keeping the muzzle under control after the shot, allowing you to see the impact, and faster acquisition of the target for the next shot?

I know, that Muzzle Brakes are widely used on 1K yard BR rifles, for muzzle control.

I hate Brakes, the normal ones, anyway. Do these "slots" make the rifle noisier, or create a sharper, more irritating sound?

I wouldn't have much use for a 223, or 243, myself. They're not REEL Rifles, are they?

Smitty of the North

Thanks
Smitty of the North

 

[MaximumPenetration]

I've never seen a Winchester than can complete with my bone-stock 700's for accuracy. I'm sure they're out there, I've just never seen one.

 

[Doug in Alaska]

I wouldn't have much use for a 223, or 243, myself. They're not REEL Rifles, are they?

Smitty of the North

Thanks
Smitty of the North

Oh, come on Smitty! Of course they are REEL Rifles. However, both these cartridges probably recoil a bit more than what you are accustomed to so if you decide to give one a try, you might want to put a muzzle brake on it. We all realize when you buy a new rifle the first thing you do is have your smith install a brake. :nyanya:

 

[Matt]

I'll second that. And make sure to get a thick, 1" decelerator pad as well . . .

 

[elmerkeithclone]

Smitty, They may not be real up there where the big critters wander but the coyotes in these parts is skeared to death of them...specially by the tail end of the season!

Yup they are louder but in the 243 it doesn't really matter!

I've always considered myself more hunter and less shooter but I reckon to the fella that has shooting down to science the brakes on the VTRs are probably an asset.

I do know that when shooting the 95 gr SSTs in the 243 that I still loose the sight picture after I fire but it matters not to me! What matters is that when I look through the spotting scope the hole is where it's spose to be. Now with the 221 fireball you can actually watch a stray cat loose his brains after pulling the trigger...I kinda like that too, however morbid it may be!

 

[Smitty of the North]

Doug and Matt:

Someday you guys will get old and set in your ways too.

EKC:
I understand just what you mean.

I've never been bothered by a bar when I'm packin my 30-30.

Apparently they know better.

Smitty of the North

 

[1Cor15:19]

Now with the 221 fireball you can actually watch a stray cat loose his brains after pulling the trigger...I kinda like that too, however morbid it may be!

That paints quite a picture EKC!:lol:

I am suspecting from that post that the LVSF has found at least a semi-permanent home.

I spoke with gunbugs this afternoon about rebarreling a .222 (the barrel has seen better days) to .221 Fireball. I should have the rifle together and ready for a few furry critters this fall--not many stray cats around, but perhaps the odd lynx...

 

[elmerkeithclone]

That paints quite a picture EKC!:lol:

I am suspecting from that post that the LVSF has found at least a semi-permanent home.

I spoke with gunbugs this afternoon about rebarreling a .222 (the barrel has seen better days) to .221 Fireball. I should have the rifle together and ready for a few furry critters this fall--not many stray cats around, but perhaps the odd lynx...

Yes Sir, I'm liking it! I started off buying just a hundred brass since I wasn't certain of the little guns fate. I just ordered a couple hundred more! It looks like Remington quit chambering for the 221 Fireball so I'm gonna stock pile some brass over the next few months as it isn't going to get any cheaper or more abundant!

Keep us posted on your project!

 

[beartooth]

I have never had a Model 70 (owned three) that could shoot with my Remington 700's. Nor have I had my Remington's 700 that could out shoot my three Savage 116 rifles either. I have one Remington that will pretty much shoot with one of my Savage 116 but not with my 7mmSTW or 300Win mag in Savage 116.

In fact I have never had a 700 or even a Savage rifle in 30-06 out shoot my Mark V 30-06

 

[elmerkeithclone]

Beartooth, I have lost count of the number of rifles that I have scoped up and zeroed in for folk over the years! However I still find myself shaking my head when I get up from the bench after shooting clover leaf groups with an entry level Savage. I don't know how the folk at Savage grade their barrels....entry level vs their 116s etc. but if their top self stuff has better tolerances than their cheap stuff then they have to be scarey accurate.

I have zeroed several of the Marlin X's rifles in the last few years as well(they have the same barrel nut head spacing configuration as Savage) and they are tack drivers too!

I have always been a hunter vs shooter. I have killed tons of game with guns that would shoot on the average of an inch and a half and never thought anything about it. I pretty much took all of itty bitty group stuff with a yawn. However now that I'm getting older my interest has evolved into more time at the shooting bench and less time hanging in a tree. I'm starting to pay a whole lot more attention to accuracy and am taking much more time at the reloading bench rather than just throwing rounds together with the minute of coyote on a dead run mindset!

I really enjoy your detailed load development stuff that you share from time to time and the gentlemanly fashion that you use when presenting it!

 

[beartooth]

Thank you elmerkeithclone for the kind words. I love to hunt and when I was young a professional hunter taught me how to reload and he was always getting great groups out of his hunting rifles. I ask him back then, "why do you give so much attention to detail and accuracy when loading hunting bullets if you are not going to compete with them?" I remember him just smiling at me as we were at the range shooting and he knew I could shoot good at the bench. He said, "Stand up and shoot from a standing postion." So, I did and my group had expanded by quit a bit. He said, "Now sit down and shoot from a sitting position." So I did and the group was a little better. Then he said, "Shoot from a prone position and use your sand bag like you would use your back pack when hunting." So I did and the group was better than my sitting position in fact it was a pretty good group. Then he said, "How do those group compare to your bench groups." That is all he had to say, I saw his point. He went on to tell me, "In the field things are never quit as good as at the bench. So you need to get your groups as small as you can at the bench so you can hit the exact spot on the game you want to while in the field whether it is a 100yds or 400yds. So I have lived by that instruction all my hunting and shooting life and I know it has paid off so many times with game DRT more times than not. I don't want to go to the field with a rifle that I know does not keep it 3/4" and under. That is my standard and I really perfer 1/2 guns. Just a thing with me.

 

[Smokey]

I have enjoyed both hunting and competitive shooting with shotgun and archery, and as I have aged I am now enjoying more time "at the bench" playing with rifles and loads. I think as we age, and our time afield hunting slows down, our desire to still enjoy the shooting sports burns brightly and working up accurate loads and guns is just one more way to continue the love of the sport!
I would have to say competitive archery parallels fine rifle shooting in many ways.
To win an indoor championship usually an archer had to shoot a perfect round of 60 in the bullseye at 20 yards - then the one ( if there were ties ) that had the most X's ( small circle inside the bullseye ) would take the crown. My best win was with 57 X's - much like hi power rifles I would think. Learning how to get all you can outa the equipment and yourself is the name of the game for sure!
There are a lot of great contributors on this site and I thank you all for the inputs and entertainment my friends!
Randy