Native Land and tickets....?

tccak71

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Too bad it took 31 posts to actually address the original question. Thanks Erik, rep to ya. By the I got to your post I was ready to re-post the op's question because it had even been touched, let alone answered.

So the rent a cop guy CAN'T enforce the law; much like a rent-a-cop at Dimond Center?

I'm 2/2 having good experiences with two different Native Corps; Chugach Native Corp and Ahtna. I rode the Eklutna Lake Road and did NOT pay the fee (didn't leave the right of way) and had a nice conversation with the Native "officer." Next day I paid the fee and accessed the Klutina and did a little fishing. He sold me on the $100 ANNUAL trespass fee; covers camping, snowmachine access, etc..

Thanks again for addressing the question Erik.

Tim
 

Marc Taylor

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Plane flies off. You're left on a riverbank in S.W. Alaska by a reputable, licensed transporter.
You're unpacking gear and along comes the skiff full of locals, one holding his ticket book.
He wants $850 each to stay on Podunk Native Lands or he's gonna write you a "ticket".

What do you do?

Taylor
 
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J2theD

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Thank you Eric! Finally got what I was looking for and thats kind of what I thought the case to be. I was worried by original post was being misunderstood. Again, thanks for being clear.
 

Brian M

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This thread has been edited to remove posts that were not related to the topic. This is not the thread to discuss whether ANCSA was a good idea. Removed posts were not necessarily violations of our forum rules, but I wanted to get this one back on track. Thanks to those who have attempted to answer the original question and issues related to it.
 

martentrapper

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Um...the OP asked by what legal authority a private landowner can issue a fine. That was the question. He didn't ask "How do I get away with doing whatever the hell I want?"

So, the question of how does a Native Corporation, as a private land owner levy a fine against a tresspasser? They can't. Oh, sure they can hire rent-a-cops and issue them official looking ticket books from which they can issue fines to their hearts content, but a security guard in any form is not a peace officer. A security guard has no legal authority to arrest or detain a tresspasser. Not even a citizen's arrest.

Security guards can ask for your ID but they cannot compel you to show it. They are pretty much limited to informing you of your tresspass violation and escorting you off the property. If you refuse, they call the cops and the cops arrest you. If you act in an aggressive or threating manner or become verbally abusive they can execute a citizen's arrest and hold you for the troopers. Given Alaska's take on the "Castle Doctrine" an armed security guard can kill you in self defence should your aggressive or threatening behavior include anything that could be construed as a weapon. Similarly, if the security guard pulls a weapon in an attempt to extract your information, that would constitute armed/aggravated assault and how you would deal with that is your call.

So, if you're navigation skills suck and you find yourself on native corporation land, and being confronted about it, the best the corporation can due is sue you, assuming they can find out who you are. Of course, they can collect all the fines you're willing to voluntarily pay.

Now please do not interpret this post as me advocating hunters and fishermen ignore private property rights. The corportations are sovereign landowners and they have the right to limit and control access and activities on their land. Some corporations allow tresspass for a fee, some do not. For those that do, I suggest paying the fee if your plans include Native land.

Thanks Eric, that's about what my info and experience has been. I'll ad some thoughts.

Security officers in this day and age can take pics of you. They can note your gps coordinates, they can record vehicle, boat too, registration or license numbers. Then they can pursue authorities to make an arrest, or sue thru the courts. I would assume tho that to be successful in court, they would need to show damages to their property.

Marc Taylors scenario would be rare in Alaska I suspect, but not impossible.
 
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Funny, I must excuse myself, I missunderstood.......

I see your not interested in the Truth, that you CAN be arrested, and ticketted for tresspass, taken to court and fined, even jailed, by security or private citizens. The link I provided in my thread below, #11, to the AK stautes is no joke.
Arrest and detain criminals? Hell ya!!!, Ive done it, and thats the way it is.

The threads that told you what you wanted to hear may make you happy, but when your wondering what happend after your in jail and making payments to the court, maby you'll be interested in what can really happen.

Good luck in your endevors.

Mark, if a guide dropped you off and someone ticketted you for tresspass, you sue the guide if he doesnt make good. If the Ticket was made in the wrong, you sue the security firm that hassled you, its illegal to harrass hunters, and very few security firms would not know the bondries they are enforcing. They are not there to hassle you, but make sure that all is smooth, and assist those who paid a lease.

Ive personally seen this all with my own eyes, tresspassers, security services, arrests made and fines given by a Judge in acourt of law, where ******* tresspassers end up.




Good luck, what ever it is your up too
 

Erik in AK

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Plane flies off. You're left on a riverbank in S.W. Alaska by a reputable, licensed transporter.
You're unpacking gear and along comes the skiff full of locals, one holding his ticket book.
He wants $850 each to stay on Podunk Native Lands or he's gonna write you a "ticket".

What do you do?

Taylor

I'm going to break out the maps and GPS and verify the man's claim. If he's right? I'm on the sat-phone to the air taxi to get back to my location now and relocate me at their cost. If he's mistaken then I'm going to be as polite as I can while trying to avoid a confrontation. If he/they press and it becomes obvious I'm caught in some sort of shakedown then I'm back on the sat-phone but this time it's a call to 911.

"Hello? 911? My name is Erik in AK. I was just dropped off by Hypothetical Flying Service # miles upstream of the mouth of XYZ River, I'm being threatened by some armed folks claiming I'm on their property. Come quick!"

At that point if the situation escalates I'm prepared to defend myself. I sincerely hope nothing like that ever happens but I'd rather die on a riverbank than be mugged on one.

Of course the other option is to pay. And while you're paying, also pay attention to faces, descriptions, clothes, boat registration numbers...evidence. So when you contact the troopers to file robbery charges you can give them something to go on.

I also wanted to add that my opinions on the topic of trespass enforcement comes from my experience as a guard on TAPS. TAPS guards are armed primarily to defend the pipeline or themselves in event they encounter armed saboteurs.
I received the same use of deadly force/force continuum training taught at the Trooper Academy. I was authorized to draw my weapon if I encountered an armed person on company property. I was authorized to shoot them if they drew on me, or approached within 7 paces after being ordered to drop their weapon(s). I was also authorized to shoot if I ever encountered felony assault i.e. rape, attempted murder, aggraveted assualt where verbal commands to cease are ignored. In any situation where I was authorized to shoot, I was expected to kill, or more exactly "neutralize the target."

The dealing with trespassers training goes in depth about being careful to limit yourself to legally defensible actions. This is because Ayeska's expectation is that if a guard in their employ were ever to execute a citizens arrest there would be a public brouhaha and a lawsuit.

Personally, I think the fine issue is a calculated move on the part of some ANC's management. I don't think they necessarily expect to collect much in the way of fines but they get a lot of PR mileage out of the program as a deterrant to trespassing.
 

AKDoug

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It is not illegal to trespass on unposted private land in Alaska if you are engaged in a lawful outdoor activity if you meet the criteria in the statute. What will eventually make it's way to court is whether posting property by listing it on the internet and at regional airports actually satisfies the need to "post" your land by Alaska Statutes. Eventually someone will sue or fight one of these "tickets" and it will get settled. To my knowledge this hasn't happened yet. Nowhere in Alaska statutes can I find where any landowner can issue a "ticket" for trespass. The statutes simply state that if you are asked to leave you must leave, otherwise it's criminal trespass.
 

rimfirematt

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I will also add that you cannot be arrested for trespass unless you refuse to leave after being asked.
 

dkwarthog

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I guess the lesson to be learned here is to.....marry.....uhhhhhh......up.
 

pike_palace

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This year while hunting on the Yukon we accidently camped on some Native land. No signs around for miles, figured it was federal land but we were wrong. Couple Native guys in a boat approached us one night and explained our situation. Guy told us it was his land, and the land on both sides of the river was all Native owned for several miles each way. He was very kind and told us we were more than welcome to stay and hunt, but recommended we not go to far either direction, as some of the other land owners would not be so tolerant.

Sure enough, the next night some of his brethern came by in a couple of boats. They were not happy. They were not sober. They were just mad as all hell for us hunting "their" moose on their land and "asked" us to leave. We said "no" we are not.

We left the next morning. Got as far away as we could and still ended up on Native land (in hindsight checking on it). Didn't stop us from killing a couple of bulls though.

Should've checked on the area before the hunt, but such is life.
 

AKDoug

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You were most likely on a Native allotment parcel, not Native corporation land. That makes it private property owned by that person. You could have hunted his land with his permission, but the neighbors sounded like they didn't like it.
 

tlingitwarrior

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This year while hunting on the Yukon we accidently camped on some Native land. No signs around for miles, figured it was federal land but we were wrong. Couple Native guys in a boat approached us one night and explained our situation. Guy told us it was his land, and the land on both sides of the river was all Native owned for several miles each way. He was very kind and told us we were more than welcome to stay and hunt, but recommended we not go to far either direction, as some of the other land owners would not be so tolerant.

Sure enough, the next night some of his brethern came by in a couple of boats. They were not happy. They were not sober. They were just mad as all hell for us hunting "their" moose on their land and "asked" us to leave. We said "no" we are not.

We left the next morning. Got as far away as we could and still ended up on Native land (in hindsight checking on it). Didn't stop us from killing a couple of bulls though.

Should've checked on the area before the hunt, but such is life.

How many of you go hunting/camping/fishing without knowledge of who the property owner is?
 

Matt

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Can an AK native from another tribe (say Kenai area) hunt on another natives land from up north, or do they need to get a permit as well? How does that work?
 

Amigo Will

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Many so called rent a cops can legaly hold you and thats why they have handcuffs,same with bond collectors in many cases. I've read some real horror stories of folks in Washington getting caught on lumber company land with out permits.I will say I have found if you know the native folks that own the land from every day life you probably will not have problems.If a person just comes to you to borrow money you are not likely to give them much time and asking to hunt is much like that.The kid with the car has the most friends
 

Snowman1979

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I always like throwing my 2 cents in when I know I should'nt.
Just found on the web, def of the two. The big difference being intent and proving it. Once you have been notified that you're trespassing if your caught again it's Criminal.
As to restraning, "Arresting, Detaining" a person when your not a LE type person backed by a government I added the last definition.
Civil Trespass to Land

  • A person may enter another's land, cause a third party to enter another's land, or place an object on another's land. A person may also stay on another's land longer than he has been permitted to stay or fail to remove his possession from another's land at the agreed-upon time.

Proving Trespass to Land

  • In order for a landowner to prove that a person has trespassed on his land, he must show that the person entered the land on his own volition with the intent to make use of the land without the landowner's permission.


    Criminal Trespass

    • A person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a dwelling or premises without the owner's consent, or the person enters or remains in a building or on real property without the owner's consent. The law in most states assumes that a person lacks the owner's consent to enter the owner's property when the owner or someone else has communicated this to the person, of when there is a fence around the property or a sign warning against trespassing that potential intruders can see. Different states have different laws that will be used to determine whether or not a person has trespassed upon another's property. If in doubt, you should consult those laws to find out the definition of and punishments for the crime.


    False imprisonment often involves the use of physical force, but such force is not required. The threat of force or arrest, or a belief on the part of the person being restrained that force will be used, is sufficient. The restraint can also be imposed by physical barriers or through unreasonable duress imposed on the person being restrained.



 

tlingitwarrior

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Can an AK native from another tribe (say Kenai area) hunt on another natives land from up north, or do they need to get a permit as well? How does that work?

I have no rights on Doyon, or NANA or any other regional/village corporation. In fact, I need permission from my own corporation to access "my" property. Difference is, I don't have to pay the $1,500 fee to Ahtna if I want to hunt bison on their property, or predators or what have you. I do have to get their permission and have that on my person.

Every corp is different in terms of process. Ahtna allows non-natives to hunt, granted they go through their process. Doyon will not allow non-native or non doyon shareholders to hunt. Not sure of the others.
 

pike_palace

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How many of you go hunting/camping/fishing without knowledge of who the property owner is?

I guess they were too busy getting their free land to put up signs. I've since gotten in touch with the property areas area on the Yukon and will not make the same mistake again.
 

tyrex13

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I would like to inform everybody that I have a lot of prime hunting land with lots of animals on it. I don't have any signs up, but my land and animals are for white people only and I will be ticketing, fining and detaining any natives that I find on it.

Sounds absurd in reverse doesn't it?
 

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