Keeping foul-hooked sockeye?

[Nerka]

AKres - it is not that simple -sockeye are sight fieeders

AKres - it is not that simple -sockeye are sight fieeders

Akres, the information you provided is a generalized life history which does not say they swim around with their mouths open.

In fact, sockeye are sight feeders. As juveniles they seek out their prey and in freshwater will take a higher percentage of female copepods because they bear eggs. These copepods are a half inch in length. In addition, fry entering lakes from river spawning grounds will feed on insects which can be an important part of their diet.

The impact of light and the ability to see prey is significant in Skilak Lake on the Kenai. When there is high glacial melt the ability of sockeye to find food decreases and growth slows - this is from ADF&G studies. In addition, because sockeye seek out females the copepods have developed mechanisms to avoid sockeye. They will migrate vertically in the water column - going down during the day into darker waters and coming up at night to feed. If sockeye just swam around with their mouths open they would just swim deeper during the day. They do not.

Another interesting fact is that sockeye appear to feed in clear water lakes in the twilight periods. This is thought to take place as the contrast of a prey item against the sky makes it more visible to sockeye who look up from below to feed.

In the marine environment they take copepod crustaceans (shrimp like creatures), gastropods (snail larvae), amphipods(another shrimp like creature), decapods (crabs), insects, euphausid (shrimp), squid,and even herring fry. A good reference is Forster, R.E. The Sockeye Salmon, Fisheries Research Board of Canada Bulletin 162. This is old as it was published in 1968 but there are other recent references which state the same thing. In one study squid were found in 20 percent of the sockeye stomachs.

So while people draw the conclusion that because they have fine gill rakers that they just swim around and strain the water --that is not entirely true. They do select prey and they take a wide range and size of prey.

Therefore, to say that they do not strike a fly that may resemble a small herring fry, a large shrimp like creature, or even a squid is not correct. While feeding and digestion stop in freshwater the instinct to strike is still there.

Hope this helps people understand that these are complex animals that just do not swim around with their mouths open.

 

[SockeyOrange]

Thanks Nerka...

Thanks Nerka...

My thoughts exactly, reds do bite. I have had success with certain patterns, and can say without a doubt that reds do bite. In my opinion, for most people fishing for reds is like shooting in a flock. Throw out some metal and hope you hit something...As for snagging I would say let people keep them even if they are not hooked in the mouth but only as a management tool in big return years. The style of fishing does not change, no salt water meat hooks allowed. If you have spent any time in the salt, the motion of snaging is very different than the Kenai flip most people use, therefore it is easy to spot.

 

[theilercabin]

Soc-eye Snagging

Soc-eye Snagging

I am just hearing about this.

I spend a bit of time guiding on Big River Lakes, across the west side of Cook Inlet. I have a lot of experience with this issue. Even on a fly out there can be 20 boats lined up at Wolverine Creek. 98% of the clients get their limits, it simply takes a bit longer to get the three fish limit legally. The illegally hooked fish that are released can be seen in the water all scarred up, and often dying. I would have to say if people were allowed to keep their three fish regardless of how they are hooked it would more than likely be beneficial to the overall soc-eye run. It would increase catch levels very nominally since most everyone always catches their limit there, and would reduce the amount of scarred and hurt fish that often die before getting the chance to spawn as well as the overall pressure of the shear number of boats that line up in Wolverine Creek.


I would definitely have to think it over more and get more outside information before making a conclusive judgement on whether this is a good idea or not. Sort of takes the fun and the "semi skill" out of what it takes to get your fish. I wouldn't think there would be anything wrong with a trial and see how it goes, but you wouldn't know the real overall effects of the trial till several years down the road. It's a very delicate system a greater intelligence has setup. We need just the right numbers to spawn, not too many or not enough. Too many will eat all the custaesans in the lake and not leave enough for the next year, hurting the following run, and too few making it to spawn won't produce a healthy survival rate of return soc-eye.

 

[Nerka]

just for fun.

just for fun.

I thought this might be of interest on the discussion of feeding sockeye salmon.

In Ptarmigan Lake, where there are no sockeye salmon, the copepods are bright orange. This allows them to get close to the surface of the lake to feed and be protected from ultraviolet rays from the sun. In contrast, in Skilak Lake, the same species of copepod is translucent. Why the different? The answer is predation by sight feeding sockeye salmon. In other glacial systems with and without sockeye one sees the same pattern. The orange color makes the copepods easier to see and those they are selected for consumption. This selective pressure by sockeye salmon results in those translucent forms surviving and eventually predominating. Natural selection in action right here in the Kenai River system.

Just thought you would like to know this for wining a bet at a party..

 

[akkona]

3/8" gap

3/8" gap

there is no limit to hook gap on the kenai except in the russian area. Well, actually I think it is officialy 1/2" but I have never seen it enforced.

On page 30 of the Southcentral Sport Fishing Regulations Summary, it states on the mainstem Kenai River, from waters of Skilak Lake within a 1/2-mile radius of the river inlet, upstream to the Sterling Highway bridge at the outlet of Kenai Lake, including the Russian River drainage, only one unbaited, single-hook, artificial lure is allowed year-round. The gap between point and shank must be 3/8" or less.

 

[Gambler]

Not to stir further ...

Not to stir further ...

Two years ago, while on anchor fishing for halibut 4-5 miles off of Flat Island, the tide was beginning to really rip so we put strips of herring on the big dipsy divers with a green flasher and set them out about 40-50 feet. I think they were probably down in the 30 foot range. Anyway, it wasn't 5 minutes and we had a fish on! Turned out to be a sockeye. Wow, that was weird, I didn't think they would hit lures much less 'trolled' herring. Re-baited and put out again. It wasn't 3 or 4 minutes and we had another sockeye.

Long story short: we nailed 5 sockeyes in about an hour on our 'trolled' herring about 30 feet down. Oh, we also picked up 2 halibut 'trolling' in the 15-20 lb range.

As far as the 'snagging goes', I guess I am fairly indifferent. I will keep fish that I floss and throw the ones that I snag back . . . regardless of the rule.

-- Gambler

 

[Akres]

Nerka ???

Nerka ???

I thought this might be of interest on the discussion of feeding sockeye salmon.

In Ptarmigan Lake, where there are no sockeye salmon, the copepods are bright orange. This allows them to get close to the surface of the lake to feed and be protected from ultraviolet rays from the sun. In contrast, in Skilak Lake, the same species of copepod is translucent. Why the different? The answer is predation by sight feeding sockeye salmon. In other glacial systems with and without sockeye one sees the same pattern. The orange color makes the copepods easier to see and those they are selected for consumption. This selective pressure by sockeye salmon results in those translucent forms surviving and eventually predominating. Natural selection in action right here in the Kenai River system.

Just thought you would like to know this for wining a bet at a party..

Just curious, Where do the thousands of Reds spawn, that go up Ptarmigan Creek? Are you saying they do not make it to the lake? Do they go back down into the Kenai? Is there a natural dam that would prevent them from getting into P Lake? Is an orange fly better than a green, red or blue one?

 

[AKBighorn]

On page 30 of the Southcentral Sport Fishing Regulations Summary, it states on the mainstem Kenai River, from waters of Skilak Lake within a 1/2-mile radius of the river inlet, upstream to the Sterling Highway bridge at the outlet of Kenai Lake, including the Russian River drainage, only one unbaited, single-hook, artificial lure is allowed year-round. The gap between point and shank must be 3/8" or less.

There are also fly fishing areas at the Moose River, Funny River and Slikok Creek that fall into this category of hook restriction as stated on page 28.

 

[Marcus]

Interesting phenomenon. . .

Interesting phenomenon. . .

I thought this might be of interest on the discussion of feeding sockeye salmon.

In Ptarmigan Lake, where there are no sockeye salmon, the copepods are bright orange. This allows them to get close to the surface of the lake to feed and be protected from ultraviolet rays from the sun. In contrast, in Skilak Lake, the same species of copepod is translucent. Why the different? The answer is predation by sight feeding sockeye salmon. In other glacial systems with and without sockeye one sees the same pattern. The orange color makes the copepods easier to see and those they are selected for consumption. This selective pressure by sockeye salmon results in those translucent forms surviving and eventually predominating. Natural selection in action right here in the Kenai River system.

]Just thought you would like to know this for wining a bet at a party.. [/SIZE]

Nerka,
Can you steer me to documentation of this phenomenon? I'm curious whether perhaps the copepods turn orange from being exposed to the sun and whether transluscence is a genetic trait passed to offspring. Thanks. . .

 

[Alaska Gray]

Wow, which side do you stand on???? Positives for both sides. My two cents is to keep it as is. Not everyone limits out and if the rule changes you can just about say everyone will limit out and what would that do for future numbers on the Russian

 

[homerdave]

but wait!!!

but wait!!!

if you snag one and it gets off should it count against your bag limit??
<joking, guys,...joking>

 

[Nerka]

Ptarmigan Creek answer

Ptarmigan Creek answer

Akres - Ptarmigan Creek does have a blockage to upstream migration. Those fish that spawn in the creek drop down and rear in Kenai Lake. At one point ADF&G was going to stock the lake but conditions in the lake and other factors made that impossible - thank goodness.

Marcus, I will find the reference for you and maybe some pictures.

 

[Marcus]

No need to. . .

No need to. . .

Marcus, I will find the reference for you and maybe some pictures.

Nerka, don't trouble yourself. On a whim, I typed "copepod natural selection" into Google and got 130,000 hits. Quite a lot of reading there, including some interesting material using copepod phenomena to bolster neo-Darwinism.

 

[skipjack]

Proof of natural selection

Proof of natural selection

Nerka,
Can you steer me to documentation of this phenomenon? I'm curious whether perhaps the copepods turn orange from being exposed to the sun and whether transluscence is a genetic trait passed to offspring. Thanks. . .

Good question Marcus.

The real proof would be to introduce sockeyes into Ptarmigan Lake and see the copepods change color both physically and genetically. Then remove the salmon and watch it go back.