Honest discussion on the merits of the 458 win mag

[GrassLakeRon]

Hi all....

Im looking for folks with experience using the 458 on large game. What are its best merits on moose and bear? Downsides?

As always thanks....

Ron

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[AGL4now]

I carried a .458 Win Mag. when guiding "only" Brown Bear hunters. It only excels at one thing........and that is shooting 505 gr. solids through 2" and 3" alders, at wounded bears. Other then that one specific application, many cartridges are superior. Please don't take this wrongly, but you are way, way, way wrong thinking in your quest for a bear gun. I'll post more later.

I think I have built sixteen .458 Win. Magnums back in the 80's.

 

[BrownBear]

Never clanked anything big with the couple I owned. I'd hesitate with it as a gun for big bears based on the comments of my several guide buddies and hunting partners. The trajectory is too loopy for them. Not that they plan on taking FIRST shots way out there, but it's the follow-ups on wounded bears they worry about. If a wounded bear gets out to 300 or 400 yards and is headed into alders, you better believe you'd like to be able to put it down before it disappears and you have to dive in after it. To a man, I recall that all 5 of these guys have moved on to one or another of the 416's for the best combo of trajectory for emergency long-range shooting as well as gee whiz when the wounded bear is pointed at you.

My love of the 458 is for other things. It's just about the best cast bullet caliber I've ever owned. I probably put 100 low velocity cast loads through both of mine for every jacketed load I shot. I've probably head shot more snowshoe hare with .458 cast bullets than most guys have shot in a lifetime with a 22. Both of mine were so darned accurate with softish (Lyman #2 alloy) bullets at 1200 fps, it seemed criminal to do anything else with them. I'm talking ragged hole groups all the way out to 100 yards or so. But if I was needing a rifle for bear hunting today, I'd probably spend the money elsewhere and use one of my 375 H&H's. If I really NEEDED to buy a bear rifle for some reason rather than use perfectly fine 375's, I'd go with one of the 416s.

 

[Coldfoot]

Never clanked anything big with the couple I owned. I'd hesitate with it as a gun for big bears based on the comments of my several guide buddies and hunting partners. The trajectory is too loopy for them. Not that they plan on taking FIRST shots way out there, but it's the follow-ups on wounded bears they worry about. If a wounded bear gets out to 300 or 400 yards and is headed into alders, you better believe you'd like to be able to put it down before it disappears and you have to dive in after it. To a man, I recall that all 5 of these guys have moved on to one or another of the 416's for the best combo of trajectory for emergency long-range shooting as well as gee whiz when the wounded bear is pointed at you.

My love of the 458 is for other things. It's just about the best cast bullet caliber I've ever owned. I probably put 100 low velocity cast loads through both of mine for every jacketed load I shot. I've probably head shot more snowshoe hare with .458 cast bullets than most guys have shot in a lifetime with a 22. Both of mine were so darned accurate with softish (Lyman #2 alloy) bullets at 1200 fps, it seemed criminal to do anything else with them. I'm talking ragged hole groups all the way out to 100 yards or so. But if I was needing a rifle for bear hunting today, I'd probably spend the money elsewhere and use one of my 375 H&H's. If I really NEEDED to buy a bear rifle for some reason rather than use perfectly fine 375's, I'd go with one of the 416s.

+1000% You speak much TRUTH.....

 

[hodgeman]

Hi all....

Im looking for folks with experience using the 458 on large game. What are its best merits on moose and bear? Downsides?

The .458 has plenty of juice, but not much reach.

For a moose gun, you're a lot better off with a flatter shooting cartridge. Depending on your hunting area, your moose shooting might be out there a piece. Both moose my partner and I shot were 300 and 340 yards respectively. A much better moose gun is a .300 or .338- both have power and reach.

The other downsides are ferocious recoil and excessive cost. I had a lovely .416 Rigby that I let go for that very reason.

 

[GrassLakeRon]

As you guys know, i own a 375 h&h. I was looking for sub 100 yards power. Now that i built that 450 nitro express (think 458 win mag) i just wanted to honestly know its limits. Thank for all the advice.

Ron

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[BrownBear]

Now that i built that 450 nitro express (think 458 win mag) i just wanted to honestly know its limits.

Take that great rifle out to a couple hundred yards and all is clear. Looking forward to reports on the performance of your 450. I have a soft spot for 45 caliber and cast slugs, so keep those on your list!

 

[elmerkeithclone]

My love of the 458 is for other things. It's just about the best cast bullet caliber I've ever owned. I probably put 100 low velocity cast loads through both of mine for every jacketed load I shot. I've probably head shot more snowshoe hare with .458 cast bullets than most guys have shot in a lifetime with a 22. Both of mine were so darned accurate with softish (Lyman #2 alloy) bullets at 1200 fps, it seemed criminal to do anything else with them. I'm talking ragged hole groups all the way out to 100 yards or so. But if I was needing a rifle for bear hunting today, I'd probably spend the money elsewhere and use one of my 375 H&H's. If I really NEEDED to buy a bear rifle for some reason rather than use perfectly fine 375's, I'd go with one of the 416s.

I sure do like the way you think!

 

[yukon254]

I've never owned a 458, but like any caliber once you understand the trajectory making longer shots isn't hard. I've got a good friend that has been hunting with a 45/70 exclusively for 35 years now. Ive watched him kill game cleanly all the way out to 280 yards and he uses open sights. Phil Shoemaker has the trajectory of his old 458 figured out too. I remember reading a story about him whacking a big bull moose out at the 400-yard mark.

 

[BrownBear]

I think the problem for about 99% of 458 owners is shooting them often enough to become competent enough for the long range shooting. Most are too light and just beat the holysnot out of you shooting high power loads 40 or 60 at a time once a week to earn that kind of skill.

In my firsthand experience too, the trajectory is so loopy out past 200 yards, you need even more experience if you're going to estimate range accurately in a hurry when there's no time for a rangefinder. Unless memory is failing me (not all that unusual these days!), when sighted in dead on at 100 yards the 458 is something like 50 inches low at 400 yards. Sure you can compensate for that if you're sure the shot is 400 yards. But I bet that if it's 350 or 450 instead, we're talking about a complete miss. And at 400 yards it's purty durned easy for this guy in a hurry to be off by 50 yards.

As requested by Grasslake Ron, that's about as honest as it gets.

 

[AGL4now]

Wow.........that is sure different then the original post.

As you guys know, i own a 375 h&h. I was looking for sub 100 yards power. Now that i built that 450 nitro express (think 458 win mag) i just wanted to honestly know its limits. Thank for all the advice.

Ron

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[GrassLakeRon]

The 450 nitro has the same numbers as the 458 win mag. Most dont shoot the 450 nitro, but have the other.

The longest shot i would make is 150 yards. Everything i have ever killed is within that range. I hear stories about said exploits of the 458 win mag and the amazing stuff it can do.... what i want is the truth.... shots on bear and moose. I dont plan on anything outside north America.

Overkill or just right....

Ron

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[BrownBear]

No such thing as overkill for moose or bear. Or deer. Or elk. Or caribou. Out to 150 yards you'll be fine as rain for trajectory, even with my 1200 fps lead pills.

One interesting thing to watch on moose. I wouldn't expect lightning fast, drop them in their tracks kills with your 450 unless you hit major bones. Clanked several moose with my 375 (300 grains Partitions at 2500 fps) and none of them showed immediate signs of a hit. They'd walk 10 to 50 yards before laying down like they were ready for sleep. The only two I've dropped in their tracks were with a 7mm Rem Mag (160 Partition at 3100 fps) and a 270 (150 Partition at 2900 fps). Other guys can tell their own stories and I'll believe them, but my own shots have convinced me that fast and furious dumps them faster than slow and mighty.

 

[tvfinak]

true..

true..

I think that is true for most rifle owners.

But for most heavy calibers like the .458 it is maybe worse.

I think the problem for about 99% of 458 owners is shooting them often enough to become competent enough for the long range shooting. Most are too light and just beat the holysnot out of you shooting high power loads 40 or 60 at a time once a week to earn that kind of skill.

In my firsthand experience too, the trajectory is so loopy out past 200 yards, you need even more experience if you're going to estimate range accurately in a hurry when there's no time for a rangefinder. Unless memory is failing me (not all that unusual these days!), when sighted in dead on at 100 yards the 458 is something like 50 inches low at 400 yards. Sure you can compensate for that if you're sure the shot is 400 yards. But I bet that if it's 350 or 450 instead, we're talking about a complete miss. And at 400 yards it's purty durned easy for this guy in a hurry to be off by 50 yards.

As requested by Grasslake Ron, that's about as honest as it gets.

 

[yukon254]

No such thing as overkill for moose or bear. Or deer. Or elk. Or caribou. Out to 150 yards you'll be fine as rain for trajectory, even with my 1200 fps lead pills.

One interesting thing to watch on moose. I wouldn't expect lightning fast, drop them in their tracks kills with your 450 unless you hit major bones. Clanked several moose with my 375 (300 grains Partitions at 2500 fps) and none of them showed immediate signs of a hit. They'd walk 10 to 50 yards before laying down like they were ready for sleep. The only two I've dropped in their tracks were with a 7mm Rem Mag (160 Partition at 3100 fps) and a 270 (150 Partition at 2900 fps). Other guys can tell their own stories and I'll believe them, but my own shots have convinced me that fast and furious dumps them faster than slow and mighty.

I wouldnt argue the point that speed dumps them faster, although I havent noticed it. In my experience shot placement determines that. The two fastest kills I've ever seen on moose were with a 7mm08 and a 300 Savage. Both were knocked off their feet on the first shot and DRT. I've seen big bulls hit with arrows that didnt go 10 feet too. Then I've seen bulls hit in the ribs with a 300 Weatherby run 50-yards....actually saw that this past fall. Hunter hit him right behind the shoulder from a distance of about 180-yards. The bull humped up and kept walking. I saw the bullet hit and knew the moose was dead so didnt have him follow up and ruin more meat. Those high velocity rounds will tear up some meat!

 

[AGL4now]

The short coming of cartridges like .458 Win. Mag. is most who hunt Alaska would like to harvest some wolves. Most hunters experience their chance while primarily hunting other game, and they just happen on a pack of three to thirty wolves. Do you really want to restrict yourself to 150 yards maximum shot......?? That is fine, and if you have harvested 40 wolves in the past, maybe you just would prefer to take some photos of the wolf pack.

I like the .458 Win. Mag. and if I had a nice Double Rifle in any "So called" African cartridges, I would for sure use it "once" on a big bear, and "once" on a big moose. I would then hang it where I could enjoy looking at it. And then I would only carry a more "Multi-Purpose" rifle and cartridge when going afield, so as to maximize my harvest options.

"Over Kill or Just Right"......??? Perfect for shooting an escaping wounded Brown Bear right up the butt'hole..........that is when I want a cartridge intended for Maximum DEEP penetration. For general hunting in Alaska, Over Kill and Special Purpose tool.

The 450 nitro has the same numbers as the 458 win mag. Most dont shoot the 450 nitro, but have the other.

The longest shot i would make is 150 yards. Everything i have ever killed is within that range. I hear stories about said exploits of the 458 win mag and the amazing stuff it can do.... what i want is the truth.... shots on bear and moose. I dont plan on anything outside north America.

Overkill or just right....

Ron

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[SmokeRoss]

I have taken one bull moose with a .458 in a Ruger #1 Tropical. It dropped in it's tracks. Shot from behind as it was moving away. In the spine/hump with a 400 gr Barnes X. I have taken 3 with a .375 H&H with 3oo gr Barnes X. Same results. They dropped right there. Another big bull dropped in his tracks with a .416 also shooting Barnes X. OTOH I tipped one over backwards that I shot in the chest from the front with an old Winchester 71 in .348 with Hornady bullets.

 

[GrassLakeRon]

The short coming of cartridges like .458 Win. Mag. is most who hunt Alaska would like to harvest some wolves. Most hunters experience their chance while primarily hunting other game, and they just happen on a pack of three to thirty wolves. Do you really want to restrict yourself to 150 yards maximum shot......?? That is fine, and if you have harvested 40 wolves in the past, maybe you just would prefer to take some photos of the wolf pack.

I like the .458 Win. Mag. and if I had a nice Double Rifle in any "So called" African cartridges, I would for sure use it "once" on a big bear, and "once" on a big moose. I would then hang it where I could enjoy looking at it. And then I would only carry a more "Multi-Purpose" rifle and cartridge when going afield, so as to maximize my harvest options.

"Over Kill or Just Right"......??? Perfect for shooting an escaping wounded Brown Bear right up the butt'hole..........that is when I want a cartridge intended for Maximum DEEP penetration. For general hunting in Alaska, Over Kill and Special Purpose tool.

Interesting idea. I think the only way I would shoot a wolf is it it was attacking me or my party.

Most everything I own would be Overkill and massive pelt damage on a wolf anyway.

 

[BrownBear]

I'm going to speculate a bit here based on my failure to follow through on an opportunity to experiment when I had the chance. A bud picked up a Ruger #1 rechambered to 460 WBY, but was so overwhelmed by the recoil he could barely shoot it, much less do load development. I was young and full of big bore vinegar, so he passed it along to me "for a while" along with 24# of powder, 200 cases and a big heavy box of assorted bullets. I shot it a whole lot, even as it totally ate my lunch in such a light gun.

Among the bullets were 10 boxes, 50 bullets each, of custom 600 grain boattailed spitzers from somewhere (don't remember). They were an interesting bunch and in fact shot best in spite of the extra recoil, to the point that when I returned the setup to him all 200 cases were loaded with that bullet.

My failure was in not "borrowing" a few or buying my own to try in either of my 458's. Both rifles liked heavier bullets and it just seemed like a good experiment with a 458. They were certainly flat enough for long shooting in the 460, and I bet there would have been some benefits in the 458 in spite of lost velocity to weight.

The funny side of the story? I had to track the guy down and literally shove the rifle into his hands to return it. It took 2 years to give it back to him, and he really didn't want it back when I finally managed to catch him. Best I recall he managed to sell it in less than a week after I returned it! For the record, he'd put 2 rounds of factory ammo through it before turning it over to me!!!!!! I've shot assorted 600 Nitro's over the years, and that thing made the 600 seem like a kitten.

 

[GrassLakeRon]

No recoil in my build.

https://youtu.be/JN9aAIZq2K4



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