Full 22/23 closure for king and snow crab

[kasilofchrisn]

Welp, my view on climate change is pretty simple. There is no doubt in my mind that our climate is rapidly changing right now, becoming much warmer at a very significant rate. The ultimate question is, is it a "voluntary" change (ie caused by man and his activities) or "involuntary" change (caused my mother nature). No doubt many people want to discuss the "voluntary" vs "involuntary" causes, but for me that is a red herring argument. Because it doesn't matter which it is, as if we expect to continue on this earth as a species we have to deal with it from any causes, either "voluntary" or "involuntary".

You see Norcalbob that's where you are wrong!
Most climate deniers are not denying that the climate is changing, though, there probably are a few.
Most climate deniers look at the scientific evidence from Ocean core sampling and other sources that show there were at least seven ice ages in the earths past. And of course the subsequent warming spells. So those people believe that mother nature has cyclical changes that go from cold to warming. This is also evidenced by geological data that shows fossils of tropical plants being found in the Alaskan Arctic.
So while the science does show that the Earth's temperature is warming the real question becomes is man exacerbating the problem or not.
Because mother nature doesn't have a giant thermostat that we can just turn down.
If the evidence shows that man is the problem and we are accelerating climate change by burning fossil fuels, release of excessive volumes of CO2, and other things then maybe we can change in order to slow the rate of global warming.
For instance in the past we have banned the use of certain freon chemicals as we know they are greenhouse gases that were exacerbating the hole in the ozone layer.
But if this global warming is all part of mother nature's graplan then what do you propose we do to fix the problem?
How do we make Winters last longer and more snow to accumulate so that the glaciers don't melt as fast?
How do we cool the oceans temperatures so that the crabs don't die off in Alaska's bearing Sea?
Are you a believer that the governments of the world should continue to work on ways to control mother nature so that at some point we can throw magic chemicals in the air or by some other means cool the Earth?
If man is proven to be a leading cause in the current climate change scenario there are definitely things we can do to help with that problem.
But if this is all part mother nature's grand plan so to speak what are we to do about that?
It's not exactly like we have a climate change repair shop!

I think you completely missed my point. Let me restate it.
No matter the cause of climate change, ultimately mankind must deal with it in order to survive, regardless of the cause. So, it's useless to debate the causes as an excuse to not do anything, IMNSHO.
There are things mankind can do right now to help slow down those changes (or not), so it's up to mankind to decide what to do.
What happened in prior ice ages or warming didn't matter much to mankind because there weren't around 8 billion people around to suffer the effects.

So your perpetuating the premise that man is the cause or man is exacerbating the problem of global warming and that we can actually do things to change it?
If so you'll have to provide some links to factual data on that.
And how do you propose we change what mother nature has done/is doing?
One has to prove that man is the cause or is exacerbating the cause of global warming before man can change the inevitable.
Like I said the only way I know of to change what mother nature does is with experiments like they have done in creating rain by using silver iodide dropped from airplanes into the clouds.
But that is not an exact science and doesn't always work.
I have not heard of any way for mankind to reduce the Earth's temperature.
How do you propose we go about doing that?
How do you propose that we stop or change what mother nature naturally gives us?
Because it appears that you're saying that man has the ability to modify the temperature of the Earth!
And that we need to do something to change what is naturally occurring!
And I have yet to see any evidence that shows that we can do that!
We can change what man is doing but if that doesn't have the positive effects that we're looking for what do you propose we do at that point?
If it is determined that man is not the problem how do we change it at that point? Just because we have 8 billion people on this planet doesn't mean we can change the weather at will!

 

[NorcalBob]

You see Norcalbob that's where you are wrong!
Most climate deniers are not denying that the climate is changing, though, there probably are a few.
Most climate deniers look at the scientific evidence from Ocean core sampling and other sources that show there were at least seven ice ages in the earths past. And of course the subsequent warming spells. So those people believe that mother nature has cyclical changes that go from cold to warming. This is also evidenced by geological data that shows fossils of tropical plants being found in the Alaskan Arctic.
So while the science does show that the Earth's temperature is warming the real question becomes is man exacerbating the problem or not.
Because mother nature doesn't have a giant thermostat that we can just turn down.
If the evidence shows that man is the problem and we are accelerating climate change by burning fossil fuels, release of excessive volumes of CO2, and other things then maybe we can change in order to slow the rate of global warming.
For instance in the past we have banned the use of certain freon chemicals as we know they are greenhouse gases that were exacerbating the hole in the ozone layer.
But if this global warming is all part of mother nature's graplan then what do you propose we do to fix the problem?
How do we make Winters last longer and more snow to accumulate so that the glaciers don't melt as fast?
How do we cool the oceans temperatures so that the crabs don't die off in Alaska's bearing Sea?
Are you a believer that the governments of the world should continue to work on ways to control mother nature so that at some point we can throw magic chemicals in the air or by some other means cool the Earth?
If man is proven to be a leading cause in the current climate change scenario there are definitely things we can do to help with that problem.
But if this is all part mother nature's grand plan so to speak what are we to do about that?
It's not exactly like we have a climate change repair shop!

So your perpetuating the premise that man is the cause or man is exacerbating the problem of global warming and that we can actually do things to change it?
If so you'll have to provide some links to factual data on that.
And how do you propose we change what mother nature has done/is doing?
One has to prove that man is the cause or is exacerbating the cause of global warming before man can change the inevitable.
Like I said the only way I know of to change what mother nature does is with experiments like they have done in creating rain by using silver iodide dropped from airplanes into the clouds.
But that is not an exact science and doesn't always work.
I have not heard of any way for mankind to reduce the Earth's temperature.
How do you propose we go about doing that?
How do you propose that we stop or change what mother nature naturally gives us?
Because it appears that you're saying that man has the ability to modify the temperature of the Earth!
And that we need to do something to change what is naturally occurring!
And I have yet to see any evidence that shows that we can do that!
We can change what man is doing but if that doesn't have the positive effects that we're looking for what do you propose we do at that point?
If it is determined that man is not the problem how do we change it at that point? Just because we have 8 billion people on this planet doesn't mean we can change the weather at will!

An awful lot of twisting my words around right there. Unfortunately, that happens a lot here. Not worth responding in a tit-for-tat fashion.
This is from the NRDC, and these are things we can do today, right now. The decisions mankind makes right now will impact our future. And this list is quite small, and a full list of things we can do would take pages and pages.

How You Can Stop Global Warming

Healing the planet starts at home—in your garage, in your kitchen, and at your dining-room table.

www.nrdc.org

Your entire premise is based upon an unproven assumption, that is, nature is the primary cause of global warming. Well, what happens if that assumption is wrong and it turns out mankind could have done something about it, but chose not to, because we were too busy debating the actual causes instead of solutions?

 

[cdubbin]

You see Norcalbob that's where you are wrong!
Most climate deniers are not denying that the climate is changing, though, there probably are a few.
Most climate deniers look at the scientific evidence from Ocean core sampling and other sources that show there were at least seven ice ages in the earths past. And of course the subsequent warming spells. So those people believe that mother nature has cyclical changes that go from cold to warming. This is also evidenced by geological data that shows fossils of tropical plants being found in the Alaskan Arctic.
So while the science does show that the Earth's temperature is warming the real question becomes is man exacerbating the problem or not.
Because mother nature doesn't have a giant thermostat that we can just turn down.
If the evidence shows that man is the problem and we are accelerating climate change by burning fossil fuels, release of excessive volumes of CO2, and other things then maybe we can change in order to slow the rate of global warming.
For instance in the past we have banned the use of certain freon chemicals as we know they are greenhouse gases that were exacerbating the hole in the ozone layer.
But if this global warming is all part of mother nature's graplan then what do you propose we do to fix the problem?
How do we make Winters last longer and more snow to accumulate so that the glaciers don't melt as fast?
How do we cool the oceans temperatures so that the crabs don't die off in Alaska's bearing Sea?
Are you a believer that the governments of the world should continue to work on ways to control mother nature so that at some point we can throw magic chemicals in the air or by some other means cool the Earth?
If man is proven to be a leading cause in the current climate change scenario there are definitely things we can do to help with that problem.
But if this is all part mother nature's grand plan so to speak what are we to do about that?
It's not exactly like we have a climate change repair shop!

So your perpetuating the premise that man is the cause or man is exacerbating the problem of global warming and that we can actually do things to change it?
If so you'll have to provide some links to factual data on that.
And how do you propose we change what mother nature has done/is doing?
One has to prove that man is the cause or is exacerbating the cause of global warming before man can change the inevitable.
Like I said the only way I know of to change what mother nature does is with experiments like they have done in creating rain by using silver iodide dropped from airplanes into the clouds.
But that is not an exact science and doesn't always work.
I have not heard of any way for mankind to reduce the Earth's temperature.
How do you propose we go about doing that?
How do you propose that we stop or change what mother nature naturally gives us?
Because it appears that you're saying that man has the ability to modify the temperature of the Earth!
And that we need to do something to change what is naturally occurring!
And I have yet to see any evidence that shows that we can do that!
We can change what man is doing but if that doesn't have the positive effects that we're looking for what do you propose we do at that point?
If it is determined that man is not the problem how do we change it at that point? Just because we have 8 billion people on this planet doesn't mean we can change the weather at will!

Very clear example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, thanks for that! Here's some good reading by actual experts that explains how the natural cycle of warming and cooling on Earth happens, and why our current climate trajectory is entirely human-caused:

Why Milankovitch (Orbital) Cycles Can't Explain Earth's Current Warming – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet

Vital Signs of the Planet: Global Climate Change and Global Warming. Current news and data streams about global warming and climate change from NASA.

climate.nasa.gov

 

[kasilofchrisn]

An awful lot of twisting my words around right there. Unfortunately, that happens a lot here. Not worth responding in a tit-for-tat fashion.
This is from the NRDC, and these are things we can do today, right now. The decisions mankind makes right now will impact our future. And this list is quite small, and a full list of things we can do would take pages and pages.

How You Can Stop Global Warming

Healing the planet starts at home—in your garage, in your kitchen, and at your dining-room table.

www.nrdc.org

Your entire premise is based upon an unproven assumption, that is, nature is the primary cause of global warming. Well, what happens if that assumption is wrong and it turns out mankind could have done something about it, but chose not to, because we were too busy debating the actual causes instead of solutions?

Valid points. Especially if one believes that man is the primary cause of global warming.
But you also said regardless of the cause, we need to do things to fix it.
And I'm just curious how you propose we change what mother nature naturally gives us?
If it's true, as the science has proven, that the Earth naturally does go through warming and cooling cycles, how do we change those cycles? How do we reduce/slow down the number of warming cycles and increase/lengthen the number of cooling cycles?
So we could do everything within the realm of man to stop man's cause global warming and go back to being cavemen or whatever that scenario might bring us. But, if that doesn't stop the warming trend and the inevitable extinction of various animal species that goes with it, what things and or research should we be doing into changing earths natural climate?
If that's even possible!
Because shouldn't we also be looking at those options while we're doing things to reduce man's footprint?

 

[kasilofchrisn]

Well thank God I'm doing my part for the environment today by spending all day recycling.
Then again I I do more recycling of cardboard, paper, water bottles, etc then anyone else in the state of Alaska! Except for West Rock in Anchorage of course who handles the majority of our state's recycling.
I hope you're all doing the same in recycling as much as possible.
And I still think the factory trawlers are a big part of the problem in regards to our crab and fish populations we need to put an end to the era Factory trawlers!

 

[iofthetaiga]

Today PWS tanner crab was also shut down for 2023 due to diminishing biomass. ("It's those damned Chinese factory trawlers in PWS, I tell ya!" LMFAO).

 

[kasilofchrisn]

Today PWS tanner crab was also shut down for 2023 due to diminishing biomass. ("It's those damned Chinese factory trawlers in PWS, I tell ya!" LMFAO).

The trawl fleet in the Bearing sea caught more crab than the crab boats caught the last few years.
But of course that couldn't have an effect on our crab fisheries in those areas could it?
The Dungeness crab fishery in Homer closed what ~ 20 years ago. Same thing with the shrimp in Homer.
The Homer King Crab fishery closed roughly what ~25 years ago or more.
I suppose you're going to say those were all due to global warming as well?
I don't know about the Chinese trawl fleet, but I know the American and the Russian trawl fleet have not helped the Bearing sea crab fisheries any, nor any of the king salmon fisheries statewide!
All those millions of pounds of crab by catch obviously weren't helpful to the crab fishery.

Alaska lawmakers in both parties demand action on excessive fisheries bycatch

In the case of Bering Sea snow crab, for example, the trawl bycatch could exceed the catch quota for the actual crab fleet.

www.adn.com

 

[Patsfan54]

Very clear example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, thanks for that! Here's some good reading by actual experts that explains how the natural cycle of warming and cooling on Earth happens, and why our current climate trajectory is entirely human-caused:

Why Milankovitch (Orbital) Cycles Can't Explain Earth's Current Warming – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet

Vital Signs of the Planet: Global Climate Change and Global Warming. Current news and data streams about global warming and climate change from NASA.

climate.nasa.gov

Well we are narrowing in on the understanding of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

The link you provided to explains a small number of natural cycles, the Milankovitch cycles, it does not explain how all the natural cycles of warming and cooling on Earth happen, in fact the link you provided to says "Milankovitch cycles are just one factor that may contribute to climate change, both past and present." The link you provided most certainly did not say anything about global warming being entirely human caused.

 

[Brian M]

Today PWS tanner crab was also shut down for 2023 due to diminishing biomass. ("It's those damned Chinese factory trawlers in PWS, I tell ya!" LMFAO).

Interesting. We've been running sport crab pots for the past month. The golden king crab numbers have been excellent. The tanners have been dismal compared to last year. We figured we just weren't setting them in the right place.

 

[iofthetaiga]

Interesting. We've been running sport crab pots for the past month. The golden king crab numbers have been excellent. The tanners have been dismal compared to last year. We figured we just weren't setting them in the right place.

May as well get those golden's while you can...overall, the writing on the wall isn't positive. Yell at the band to play louder and arrange those deck chairs, folks!

 

[Patsfan54]

There are things mankind can do right now to help slow down those changes (or not), so it's up to mankind to decide what to do.

I find the idea of fertilizing the oceans with iron a promising action mankind could take, it could also backfire horribly just like any action we could take that might/will impact our global system. Science has told us that freshwater lakes already emit about 25% of all atmospheric carbon, and the more the globe warms the more they will contribute. Dead and rotting plant life in freshwater lakes sure is bad for the environment...drain the lakes!!! There's also the fact that since 1700 we've gone from 52% of our land surface being covered in forest and 38% covered in grassland and shrubs to 38% covered in forest and only 14% covered in grassland and shrubs, crops and gazing land have made up the difference, with a small percentage being urban blight. By removing about 30% of the worlds forests and 70% of our grasslands and shrubs, we've removed a massive amount of natural carbon sink. If we want to lock carbon up long term with the least amount of expense turning atmospheric carbon into plants is the quickest, cheapest, and easiest way to do so. A second growth forest has been shown to sequester carbon at a much higher rate than old growth forests since they are actively growing. Concrete and steel are well known carbon generating products, with concrete alone generating about 8% of all global carbon emissions, the amount of concrete and steel used on the roughly 1% of worldwide land known as urban blight easily making up a disproportionate amount of known man made carbon emissions. Using natural carbon products to build, instead of concrete and steel would be a huge carbon savings. Cutting old growth forest to use for those urban buildings would lock that carbon up long term, reforestation would lock up even more carbon. Like you said, it's up to mankind to decide what to do.

The hottest new thing in sustainable building is, uh, wood

The many, many benefits of using wood in place of concrete and steel.

www.vox.com

 

[Chez]

Of course you do. The only question: is such ignorance voluntary or involuntary?

Ignorance of history or flat out refusing to accept history because if doesn't match up with your feelings is the problem. Warming and cooling of the planet is a fact and MAYBE you could blame dinosaur farts for it happening at one point in time but after they died you have nothing or no one to blame except the natural warming/cooling cycle of the planet.

Since it seems to be happening at a drastic rate in our lifetime, in the grand scheme of things, judged over a few hundred or thousand years, there is nothing to see here, just move on and live your life...

 

[capt pete]

One has to wonder if all those Factory Trawlers dragging the bottom have effected these crab populations?
Just a thought.....

 

[capt pete]

It's more than "just a thought", it's a very serious concern everywhere it occurs!

 

[Tee Jay]

Where Have All the Snow Crabs Gone?

Eleven billion crabs vanished. Is climate change really to blame?

nautil.us

 

[Chez]

A volcano is erupting in Hawaii for the past few days, thats probably more carbon than man has ever produced or could produce so I guess we can forget about all this man caused global warming stuff huh??

 

[cdubbin]

A volcano is erupting in Hawaii for the past few days, thats probably more carbon than man has ever produced or could produce so I guess we can forget about all this man caused global warming stuff huh??

Um, no...human-caused carbon emissions are about 100 times greater than volcanic and all other geological out-gassing annually...

 

[iofthetaiga]

(Regurgitated from the "look it's snowing so that disproves climate change" and other moronic nonsense file).

 

[Chez]

Um, no...human-caused carbon emissions are about 100 times greater than volcanic and all other geological out-gassing annually...

Can you show any studies to prove your point, studies that are NOT paid for with govt money?

 

[4merguide]

As recently one of our forum members so eloquently stated: "You can make science interpret what you want if you control the interpretation and delivery of said data."

Of course, as mostly is the case, if said data doesn't adhere to the current narrative.....just negate it as fake science or a conspiracy theory.