I hear talk that a few biologists are considering expanding the number of units that need to be drawn to inorder to hunt sheep. While this may be in the infancy of discussion, it has RAMifications for the future. I thought the "sealing process" was put in place to keep everyone honest. This was the limiting factor for the harvest numbers while allowing more hunters to participate in the sport. What dynamics are now in play that may expand more sheep units to draw only?
Expanding Sheep Draw Units?
- Thread starter bizymocha
- Start date
outa be intersting how the public reacts, i think it we have more draw areas the quality of the hunts will go up and the permits will be spread out enough that more people will have a chance at drawing...maybe instead of three choices for draw apps, give us four or five, if they create that many new draw areas. I think overall it would make a difference in how hunts go, guides wouldn't like it much unless they get non resident preference like kodiak bears. but i don't see that happening for sheep. i think it would be an overall improvment in sheep hunting, but maybe not a few attitudes.
As someone who loves being in the mountains in August, at least selfishly I hope this doesn't happen. More often than not I am unsuccessful on my walk-in sheep hunts, but at least I have the chance to pursue them with nothing more than an over-the-counter tag. I'd hate to see that opportunity vanish, even if it did mean higher success rates and larger rams.
I haven't thought this through as far as biological and management implications. Maybe there are some merits....any thoughts?
-Brian
I haven't thought this through as far as biological and management implications. Maybe there are some merits....any thoughts?
-Brian
AlaskaCub
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Can things get any worse up here? I am already disgusted with the way things are going, may as well add some more fuel to the fire. I can already envision the day that I will be pumped cuz I drew a sheep tag after years of applying in a place I used to hunt every year. Yee haw
another tool
another tool
I'm not a biologist, but it appears to me that their job (at least at fish and game) entails managing harvest levels. We are now at full curl for harvest ticket sheep. When there was less pressure, less than a full curl restriction was adequate to keep harvest levels in check. Now in some areas, we have both a draw and a full curl requirement. I think the draw is just another tool that managers can use to keep maintain sustainable harvest levels.
If I were a wildlife manager and I saw unsustainable harvest levels in specific areas, then it seems likely that I would consider drawing permits.
I feel that I have been very luck with drawing permits. Winning a permit makes for some great hunting. It beats the heck out of an Eklutna Lake Closed Area!
another tool
I'm not a biologist, but it appears to me that their job (at least at fish and game) entails managing harvest levels. We are now at full curl for harvest ticket sheep. When there was less pressure, less than a full curl restriction was adequate to keep harvest levels in check. Now in some areas, we have both a draw and a full curl requirement. I think the draw is just another tool that managers can use to keep maintain sustainable harvest levels.
If I were a wildlife manager and I saw unsustainable harvest levels in specific areas, then it seems likely that I would consider drawing permits.
I feel that I have been very luck with drawing permits. Winning a permit makes for some great hunting. It beats the heck out of an Eklutna Lake Closed Area!
i'm pretty sure only the places that are hurting the worst would go to a draw, alot of the ak range, brooks and even SOME of the talkeetnas would probably stay over the counter.
either way, i'd rather see the bio's taking care of the sheep, rather than taking care of the hunters. as much as i'd hate to have to draw a tag to hunt sheep in the area that i guide now, i'd rather see a draw there with some sheep still around and the chance to at least hunt them,rather than people there and no sheep.
i suppose it'll come down to a give and take on our part.
either way, i'd rather see the bio's taking care of the sheep, rather than taking care of the hunters. as much as i'd hate to have to draw a tag to hunt sheep in the area that i guide now, i'd rather see a draw there with some sheep still around and the chance to at least hunt them,rather than people there and no sheep.
i suppose it'll come down to a give and take on our part.
homerdave
New member
better success, bigger rams...?
better success, bigger rams...?
perhaps in some areas, but the most recent area to go from a general hunt to a drawing is round mtn, and in the last 2 years 5 hunters have taken one ram, and it is a safe bet it was barely legal...
the purpose of that hunt being changed was the sheer numbers of folks heading up the trail every opening day. now as it is, you have less chance of drawing than the TMA, and way less chance of killing, let alone seeing, a legal ram; but there will only be 2 other guys hunting there with you...
of course, the area is so small you will probably see them<grin>.
better success, bigger rams...?
perhaps in some areas, but the most recent area to go from a general hunt to a drawing is round mtn, and in the last 2 years 5 hunters have taken one ram, and it is a safe bet it was barely legal...
the purpose of that hunt being changed was the sheer numbers of folks heading up the trail every opening day. now as it is, you have less chance of drawing than the TMA, and way less chance of killing, let alone seeing, a legal ram; but there will only be 2 other guys hunting there with you...
of course, the area is so small you will probably see them<grin>.
sheep draws
sheep draws
I don't like the idea of more draw areas myself. Just getting to be more and more like the lower 48. Unfortunately, some units could probably use some help in managing the sheep numbers/hunters. Even though people use the Brooks as a go to if you don't draw-----it's getting hammered hard I understand. Now people are saying there are guides all over the place in about every drainage. Personally, I don't believe guides should have preference. Some of them are limited in their numbers of clients, but I don't believe all are? Talking to one of the transporters this year, he even mentioned maybe FWP should limit the number of sheep hunters a transporter can legally bring in/out, but I don't know if I agree with that either. It sure is nice to be able to hunt sheep as residents every year, and more limitations make that more and more difficult. Tough topic.
sheep draws
I don't like the idea of more draw areas myself. Just getting to be more and more like the lower 48. Unfortunately, some units could probably use some help in managing the sheep numbers/hunters. Even though people use the Brooks as a go to if you don't draw-----it's getting hammered hard I understand. Now people are saying there are guides all over the place in about every drainage. Personally, I don't believe guides should have preference. Some of them are limited in their numbers of clients, but I don't believe all are? Talking to one of the transporters this year, he even mentioned maybe FWP should limit the number of sheep hunters a transporter can legally bring in/out, but I don't know if I agree with that either. It sure is nice to be able to hunt sheep as residents every year, and more limitations make that more and more difficult. Tough topic.
homerdave
New member
PREDATOR control...
PREDATOR control...
uhh...unless i'm wrong, we are PREDATORS.
so, in essence we ARE talking about PREDATOR control.
PREDATOR control...
uhh...unless i'm wrong, we are PREDATORS.
so, in essence we ARE talking about PREDATOR control.
I thought the idea of the harvest units (non-drawing areas) going to the full curl (or 8 yo) requirement was for a sustainable harvest. After all, if you don't kill the young rams, there will always be rams... I guess, it could effect the genetics of the herd, trophy size wise, because it *might* could come down to all the full curl or 8 yo rams getting killed, then leave only the younger rams to breed. Can't see where changing areas to drawing would have any effect other than increasing trophy size by allowing at least some rams to reach their optimum potential.
AlaskaCub
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Hell I saw 7 outof 9 rams in one drainage this year that were all close to or 3/4 curl. So the population is healthy its just that the guides clean out all the legal rams in a given area and then move on to somewhere else next year. And my statement is not speculation it is fact that I later found out after returning from my fly in sheep hunt this year. The only reason I was able to be taken in there is because the guide who has been hunting it for 5 years moved on to another drainage. Sounds like a real fair shake, huh?
F
FBKShunter
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Guides
Guides
How about eliminating the non - resident guide requirement for sheep. In fact make it illegal to guide for sheep. I bet this would knock the down the sheep harvest quite a bit. This not only would give the average guy in the lower 48 a chance just to be in sheep country, but it would also give us residents a chance of harvesting more legal sheep. I'm sick of seeing guide tents and fake camps up weeks in advance of the season.
Guides
How about eliminating the non - resident guide requirement for sheep. In fact make it illegal to guide for sheep. I bet this would knock the down the sheep harvest quite a bit. This not only would give the average guy in the lower 48 a chance just to be in sheep country, but it would also give us residents a chance of harvesting more legal sheep. I'm sick of seeing guide tents and fake camps up weeks in advance of the season.
AlaskaCub
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Personally I think their ought to be a draw for guides. Reduce the number of guides allowed and then have all the guides put in for the ability to guide. That would open up a whole bunch of areas for everyone else. I had my heart set on flying into a certain location in the Alaska Range this year and after calling all the air charters that fly into that part of the raneg , they all said no. They all said there are several guides working that area so I cant take you in there. Man that chaps my A$$!
akhunter02
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all
all
make all areas draws for non residents
all
make all areas draws for non residents
sheep draws
sheep draws
Not a bad idea for non-res drawings for sheep and/or guides draw. How about at least requiring guides to only be able to guide in one area and only take a certain number of rams out of that area in order to sustain the population. Of course that number of rams taken by guided clients should take into account the number of resident hunters who may frequent that area (based on harvest report cards) and avg hunt/kill percentage, and then be based on that. However, it seems to me it is the other way around. Guides get preference and then the residents/non-res accompanied by residents get whatever left-overs there are. I guess big money talks eh!
sheep draws
Not a bad idea for non-res drawings for sheep and/or guides draw. How about at least requiring guides to only be able to guide in one area and only take a certain number of rams out of that area in order to sustain the population. Of course that number of rams taken by guided clients should take into account the number of resident hunters who may frequent that area (based on harvest report cards) and avg hunt/kill percentage, and then be based on that. However, it seems to me it is the other way around. Guides get preference and then the residents/non-res accompanied by residents get whatever left-overs there are. I guess big money talks eh!
ak_powder_monkey
New member
I think there needs to be some resident only draws, like 14c, as far as expanding them ADFG should do what they have to to protect the sheep
Nonsense
Nonsense
Going to a draw for all non-residents would probably start a lawsuit similar to what was done in Arizona. It was ruled to be a violation of the Interstate Commerce Act - an unfair system of participation. Once again, I brought this to the attention of the Forum to see what thoughts are out there. I think the first thing we must ask is: is there an demonstrable problem that might necessitate expanding draw units? Or, are biologists and other F&G just looking to change something for no good reason? Can they justify this activity. Some government types just like to meddle in stuff simply because it makes them feel important.
It will be interesting to see what comes of this for 2008.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
P.S. Do they ship turkeys to Alaska? Or do you grow your own - those with feathers I mean.
Nonsense
Going to a draw for all non-residents would probably start a lawsuit similar to what was done in Arizona. It was ruled to be a violation of the Interstate Commerce Act - an unfair system of participation. Once again, I brought this to the attention of the Forum to see what thoughts are out there. I think the first thing we must ask is: is there an demonstrable problem that might necessitate expanding draw units? Or, are biologists and other F&G just looking to change something for no good reason? Can they justify this activity. Some government types just like to meddle in stuff simply because it makes them feel important.
It will be interesting to see what comes of this for 2008.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
P.S. Do they ship turkeys to Alaska? Or do you grow your own - those with feathers I mean.
AlaskaCub
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bizymocha ,
Heres the cold hard facts from a resident perspective. There a few areas that a guy can work really hard, hiking lots and lots of miles in search of sheep with a regular sheep tag, but the success rates in such hunts is about 10%. Not a lot of residents have the cash and or are willing to spend the cash to fly in to good sheep areas. In my case I know of some good sheep areas and am willing to spend the cash but I CAN NOT get a charter to take me in there,you might ask why is that, its because the air charters have either agreements with said guide services or dont want to get into conflicts with some of the knucklehead guides. Either way as a resident you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Your best chance at a sheep is to draw a tag in a good area and then the air charters WILL take you in there. Also some of the draw hunts afford you the ability to walk in the areas that hold good sheep, but you still have to draw.But if you are a non-resident hiring a guide in a non-draw open sheep area, he will fly you deep into an area that none of us can get someone to take us into and you'll be faced with probably 75% or better chances on a legal ram. Once again its a catch 22. To answer one of your questions, I dont believe that F&G has valid and accurate info on a lot of the decisions they make such as creating draws that used to be open. Simply because they dont have the money or manpower to do thorough surveys. Thats my perspective and one discussed by us (me and my friends) resident sheep hunters regularly. Its pretty sad really. So once again this year I will pray that Santa helps me out when draws come out. We'll see.
Heres the cold hard facts from a resident perspective. There a few areas that a guy can work really hard, hiking lots and lots of miles in search of sheep with a regular sheep tag, but the success rates in such hunts is about 10%. Not a lot of residents have the cash and or are willing to spend the cash to fly in to good sheep areas. In my case I know of some good sheep areas and am willing to spend the cash but I CAN NOT get a charter to take me in there,you might ask why is that, its because the air charters have either agreements with said guide services or dont want to get into conflicts with some of the knucklehead guides. Either way as a resident you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Your best chance at a sheep is to draw a tag in a good area and then the air charters WILL take you in there. Also some of the draw hunts afford you the ability to walk in the areas that hold good sheep, but you still have to draw.But if you are a non-resident hiring a guide in a non-draw open sheep area, he will fly you deep into an area that none of us can get someone to take us into and you'll be faced with probably 75% or better chances on a legal ram. Once again its a catch 22. To answer one of your questions, I dont believe that F&G has valid and accurate info on a lot of the decisions they make such as creating draws that used to be open. Simply because they dont have the money or manpower to do thorough surveys. Thats my perspective and one discussed by us (me and my friends) resident sheep hunters regularly. Its pretty sad really. So once again this year I will pray that Santa helps me out when draws come out. We'll see.
