Brow Tine Dispute in Homer

[greyinggrayling]

Like the IRS…you never quite know how the laws are going to be interpreted by the agent you have at that moment.
Unfortunately, arbitrary laws can turn ordinary, well-intentioned citizens into tax cheats and outlaws at the whim of the official.

 

[mark knapp]

why doesnt it just say " a tine has to be atleast 1" long and longer then it is wide"

also on this bull in discussion why are we even talking about how long/wide a point has to be. i dont think that is the issue. Isnt the issue if the one tine is in the bay or not?

No, I personally believe the problem is not a third tine in the bay between the brow and main palms as in the example in the reg book. There are several differences. The bays between the 2nd and third tine and the third and forth tine on the example antler in the regs are equal in depth, not so on the OP's antler. On the OP's antler the bay between the third and forth antler is much deeper than the bay between the 2nd and third antler. Also, the third point on the reg. example is much closer to the center between the 2nd and forth tines. these things make the location of the third tine a non-issue. To me it is a tine.

To me the issue for the agent must have been the length of the first tine being miss-interpreted. I personally think think the palm has three tines and it is a legal bull but we have not gotten the same look at the antlers as have the hunter or the agent.

ADF&G agents bring frivolous charges on hunters all the time. That doesn't mean they are out to get us (though some are) it mostly means they are misinformed and ignorant of the true regulations.

We will never really know until the OP reports back after the fact. Unfortunately it's likely that this moose may cost him money. I am optimist about the outcome if it goes to trial.

The other possibility is that the close moose was used as an example. Now, every one that hears about this moose will be extra careful.

 

[mark knapp]

That’s what I was thinking. Because the first point looks plenty long enough to me, they must be thinking that top tine is in the valley? It doesn’t quite project forward either, but somewhat out to the side as well. Hard to say what the bio is disputing. That point “in the valley” can really get iffy at times.

I think there is a bay between all tines. The question is, is the third tine associated with the brow or not. I personally think it is and it is a legal moose.

 

[cdubbin]

Update: apparently a 2-person panel from DWC will be reviewing antler disputes going forward, so it won't just be on the bio...

 

[Daveinthebush]

Update: apparently a 2-person panel from DWC will be reviewing antler disputes going forward, so it won't just be on the bio...

Makes me think; Does a biologist have the legal authority to confiscate a moose?

 

[kwackkillncrew]

I believe the bios do have badges, not sure that means they could confiscate the moose. When you seal it do you need to bring in the entire moose (antlers and meat) or just the antlers? Seems like the troopers should be the ones doing the confiscating. I think that bio effd up. I know in delta when someone brings in a sheep they have 3 or 5 people look at it to determine if its legal or not. Seems like there should be more then 1 dude or dudet down there claiming something is illegal or not especially when its very controversial.

 

[cdubbin]

Yes under state law, ADFG employees can be classified as peace officers...not sure if that requires special training or not...

 

[cdubbin]

This same bio had his own run in with the law several years ago:

https://www.adn.com/crime-justice/a...nd-not-guilty-unlawful-moose-kill/2015/01/10/

 

[kwackkillncrew]

wonder how he got caught using a plane to recover a wounded moose. If he could prove he wounded it the day before common sense would say dont even waste the time in court. Should be a non issue. Love the grey areas in regs.

 

[titelines]

He confiscated this one on the 12th (2 days ago). what's his excuse on this one?

 

[kasilofchrisn]

Makes me think; Does a biologist have the legal authority to confiscate a moose?

I believe they do.
But I had a buddy who's moose was confiscated that I mentioned earlier and instead of writing the ticket himself the bio just called the Troopers and two of them came down and wrote The ticket.
They asked him where the meat was as only the horns are required for sealing.
He told him it was at the processor getting butchered and wrapped.
He asked them what they do with the meat and they said if it is going to court they just hang it in a walk-in freezer until the court is over.
He told him he wanted to leave it at the processor so that if the moose meat did go to the food bank that it would be prime for eating instead of some freezer burnt moose quarter out of their freezer.
They informed him that they would not reimburse him for the processing fee if he lost his court case and he was okay with that as he'd rather pay for the processing and have the meat be good for whoever gets it.
But in his case it didn't end up going to court before the ticket was ripped up.

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[Daveinthebush]

Yes under state law, ADFG employees can be classified as peace officers...not sure if that requires special training or not...

I would think State Troopers have a lot of training in "Law Enforcement" that a biologist would not. A trooper is sworn in. Would a biologist be sworn in too? Seems not.

 

[AKBC]

He confiscated this one on the 12th (2 days ago). what's his excuse on this one?

It's been bothering me the way the guy is holding this bull. It really looks like he's hiding something with those four fingers but I cannot imagine what it would be. It is an awkward grip.

 

[cdubbin]

He confiscated this one on the 12th (2 days ago). what's his excuse on this one?

I dunno, but I know that our regs were written to specifically protect 2-3-4 year age class bulls from harvest...some of them can sure grow a lot of points, but determining which are going to develop into brow tines and which are going to develop into mid-bay tines is not something I am qualified to do in the field...

 

[AKElectrician]

First moose is a spike fork by three second moose is a three with a bullet hole by unknown

 

[titelines]

I would have said the same about bullet hole if had only seen that pic. That is a strange grip. I'm trying to post another pic. But getting message saying file is to large. Will try from a computer later.

 

[Patsfan54]

So who gets to pick the spot? If I measure it 3 inches down and it is only 2 inches wide, it is a tine per the regulations, yet you seem to think that if someone else measures it 1 inch down and it is 1.5 inches wide, it isn't a legal tine. So which is it? Who's spot counts? It doesn't say that if it does not meet it at ANY point along it's length, then it isn't a tine.

Nobody gets to pick the point. The measurement is what the measurement is. I'd like to think we can all agree that the regs define a tine or point as "an antler projection at least 1 inch long, and longer than it is wide, with the width measured 1 inch or more from the tip." Your first example illustrates that exactly. The second measurement you reference isn't the fault of who measured it any more than the first measurement being the fault of who measured it, it's simply what the would be tine measures and it would be wider than it is long at that spot. You're right it doesn't say at ANY point along it's length, it says an inch OR MORE, which precludes anything less than an inch and includes any and everything over an inch.

If it's not over an inch it's not a point period, full stop, end of story. We all agree on that, I hope.

If it is over and inch long AND longer than it is wide measured MORE than an inch from the tip then it is a tine or point period, full stop, end of story. That also means if it's wider than it is long an inch or more beyond the tip then it's not a tine or point.

There is no set spot other than more than an inch from the tip, if it is wider than it is long 1 inch or more from the tip then it's not a tine or point...according to the regs.

 

[anchskier]

Nobody gets to pick the point. The measurement is what the measurement is. I'd like to think we can all agree that the regs define a tine or point as "an antler projection at least 1 inch long, and longer than it is wide, with the width measured 1 inch or more from the tip." Your first example illustrates that exactly. The second measurement you reference isn't the fault of who measured it any more than the first measurement being the fault of who measured it, it's simply what the would be tine measures and it would be wider than it is long at that spot. You're right it doesn't say at ANY point along it's length, it says an inch OR MORE, which precludes anything less than an inch and includes any and everything over an inch.

If it's not over an inch it's not a point period, full stop, end of story. We all agree on that, I hope.

If it is over and inch long AND longer than it is wide measured MORE than an inch from the tip then it is a tine or point period, full stop, end of story. That also means if it's wider than it is long an inch or more beyond the tip then it's not a tine or point.

There is no set spot other than more than an inch from the tip, if it is wider than it is long 1 inch or more from the tip then it's not a tine or point...according to the regs.

Yes, we agree that if it is not over an inch long, it is not a point. That's the easy part. The next part, you talked yourself in a circle. Say you have a projection (I will hold off on calling it a "point" since that is what we are trying to determine ) that at 2.5 inches from the tip measures at 2.0 inches wide (so longer than it is wide at that point), it is a point/tine, "full stop" as you say. So, you have already defined this as a point/tine. Okay. But you then go on to say that if it is wider than it is long at some point an inch or more from the tip, then it is NOT a point/tine. How does that work if that same "projection" is 1.5 inches wide measured 1.25 inches from the tip, so wider than it is long at that point? Based on your statement, suddenly this "projection" that we already defined as a point/tine and proclaimed "full stop", is now suddenly NOT a point/tine...."full stop".

 

[kwackkillncrew]

Pats fan confuses me more then the regs. (Throws hands up!) Haha

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[Doug in Alaska]

And here we go again. Ever wonder why half the long time forum members have left? I don't. I agree, Pats fan confuses me more than the regs and I'm difficult to confuse.