Bag limit increased on Little Su

aktally

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Palmer) - The Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) is increasing the bag and possession limits for coho salmon to three per day and three in possession in the Little Susitna River. These provisions are effective 12:01 a.m. Wednesday, August 8 through 11:59 p.m. Monday, December 31, 2018, for all waters of the Little Susitna River open to salmon fishing downstream of the Parks Highway bridge. The coho salmon bag limit is in combination with current limits for pink, chum, and sockeye salmon; which is only three salmon, other than king salmon, 16 inches or greater in length, can be harvested per day and in possession.

“ADF&G wants to remind anglers to be cognitive of the high and turbid conditions the Little Susitna River drainage is experiencing with the recent rains,” stated Area Management Biologist Sam Ivey. “We know anglers are excited to get out and fish, but we want to make sure they are staying safe while fishing on the waters.”

The sustainable escapement goal (SEG) for coho salmon in the Little Susitna River is 10,100-17,700 fish. As of August 6, 2018, 6,725 coho salmon have passed the Little Susitna River weir. Based on weir counts and average run timing, ADF&G is projecting to exceed the SEG. ADF&G does not anticipate that increased sport harvest from this emergency order will lower escapement below the goal in the Little Susitna River; therefore, it is warranted to provide anglers an additional sport fish harvest opportunity.

For additional information, please contact Area Management Biologist Sam Ivey at (907) 746-6300.
 

MaximumPenetration

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Palmer) - The Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) is increasing the bag and possession limits for coho salmon to three per day and three in possession in the Little Susitna River. These provisions are effective 12:01 a.m. Wednesday, August 8 through 11:59 p.m. Monday, December 31, 2018, for all waters of the Little Susitna River open to salmon fishing downstream of the Parks Highway bridge. The coho salmon bag limit is in combination with current limits for pink, chum, and sockeye salmon; which is only three salmon, other than king salmon, 16 inches or greater in length, can be harvested per day and in possession.

“ADF&G wants to remind anglers to be cognitive of the high and turbid conditions the Little Susitna River drainage is experiencing with the recent rains,” stated Area Management Biologist Sam Ivey. “We know anglers are excited to get out and fish, but we want to make sure they are staying safe while fishing on the waters.”

The sustainable escapement goal (SEG) for coho salmon in the Little Susitna River is 10,100-17,700 fish. As of August 6, 2018, 6,725 coho salmon have passed the Little Susitna River weir. Based on weir counts and average run timing, ADF&G is projecting to exceed the SEG. ADF&G does not anticipate that increased sport harvest from this emergency order will lower escapement below the goal in the Little Susitna River; therefore, it is warranted to provide anglers an additional sport fish harvest opportunity.

For additional information, please contact Area Management Biologist Sam Ivey at (907) 746-6300.

I hope everyone in the valley realizes the excellent returns this year are largely attributed to the weak kenai sockeye run. If the gillnetters weren't sitting on their hands right now, these awesome numbers would have been swallowed up in the salt water. The abundant fisheries up north have the weak kenai run to thank. Enjoy those fish. I know we have far better silver fishing than usual for this time period on the Kenai and it looks to keep getting even better, again because of the weak sockeye run and the gillnetters not fishing.
 

Raffpappy

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Although I don't fish that area of AK, I wholeheartedly agree. I spent a few weeks at my favorite campground on the Klutina and witnessed the same with Kings. With the Copper River comm fleet grounded due to a week sockeye return the Kings flooded the Gulkana and Klutina Rivers. Once the sports fishery for sockeye was reopened, many a fisherman and woman flossed kings with smaller ones being landed in a few cases. I fish the Klu regularly and haven't flossed a king since 2015, but this year I hit 3 kings for sure and one more possible, landing zero, but it was a hoot of a time.
I hope everyone in the valley realizes the excellent returns this year are largely attributed to the weak kenai sockeye run. If the gillnetters weren't sitting on their hands right now, these awesome numbers would have been swallowed up in the salt water. The abundant fisheries up north have the weak kenai run to thank. Enjoy those fish. I know we have far better silver fishing than usual for this time period on the Kenai and it looks to keep getting even better, again because of the weak sockeye run and the gillnetters not fishing.
 

mudbuddy

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Drove up to the Ltl Su ,Hatcher pass bridge, yesterday.
wow, a raging , roaring torrent of water coming thru.

Good to see valley Coho numbers up.
Read that the fish count weir shut down at noon.

Wonder how the flood will effect the few
kings in the river .
 

323

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Oh Lordy Lordy thank you! My family not going to starve now this winter due to the mismanagement of the red run in the Kenai... oh wait never mind I fished the resurrection river and dipnetted the Kasilof I guess my family isn't going to starve after all.
 

Funstastic

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I hope everyone in the valley realizes the excellent returns this year are largely attributed to the weak kenai sockeye run. If the gillnetters weren't sitting on their hands right now, these awesome numbers would have been swallowed up in the salt water. The abundant fisheries up north have the weak kenai run to thank. Enjoy those fish. I know we have far better silver fishing than usual for this time period on the Kenai and it looks to keep getting even better, again because of the weak sockeye run and the gillnetters not fishing.
Not so fast. Perhaps you could post the data on how you came to your conclusion? For example; how do you explain your theory for those years like last year when UCI gillnets had large harvests and the Little Su exceeded escapement? What is the exploitation rate of these Little Su Coho in the UCI gillnet fishery, and how does that add up to the numbers you are seeing? Can you post your math? What is the size of the run this year - is it a good run with more fish in the first place?

Most of all, exceeding the goal is missing the goal. How is that a good thing?

For the record, over the last two decades the Little Su has met or exceeded its goals about 70% of the time - not bad considering the inconsistency of this particular run coupled with the potential water condition problems, among other things.

No doubt the UCI gillnet fishery catches some Little Su bound Coho. Always has. But to point fingers and scapegoat the commercial fishery for exceeding goals on the Little Su is to not understand goal-based sustained yield management in UCI's mixed-stock fishery.
 

MaximumPenetration

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Not so fast. Perhaps you could post the data on how you came to your conclusion? For example; how do you explain your theory for those years like last year when UCI gillnets had large harvests and the Little Su exceeded escapement? What is the exploitation rate of these Little Su Coho in the UCI gillnet fishery, and how does that add up to the numbers you are seeing? Can you post your math? What is the size of the run this year - is it a good run with more fish in the first place?

Most of all, exceeding the goal is missing the goal. How is that a good thing?

For the record, over the last two decades the Little Su has met or exceeded its goals about 70% of the time - not bad considering the inconsistency of this particular run coupled with the potential water condition problems, among other things.

No doubt the UCI gillnet fishery catches some Little Su bound Coho. Always has. But to point fingers and scapegoat the commercial fishery for exceeding goals on the Little Su is to not understand goal-based sustained yield management in UCI's mixed-stock fishery.

It's pretty simple. If the gillnetters had of fished their regular openers and emergency openers, they would have undoubtedly killed silvers bound for the northern streams. This lowers the numbers of fish available to escape to those streams. While I don't have quantifiable math, I do have reason and common sense. It sounds like you do to a degree as well in your post. And it goes far beyond just the Little Su.
 

MaximumPenetration

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Oh Lordy Lordy thank you! My family not going to starve now this winter due to the mismanagement of the red run in the Kenai... oh wait never mind I fished the resurrection river and dipnetted the Kasilof I guess my family isn't going to starve after all.

My family won't starve either. We put 60 reds in the freezer in 5 outtings flipping for reds on the kenai, 60 pounds of ling cod and 350 pounds of halibut from two overnight saltwater fishing trips (from a total of 6 limits of halibut), and I haven't put a net in the water other than to net my children's reds. And we still have some killer silver fishing coming up on the Kenai, largely in part to the lack of commercial nets fishing UCI. I'm glad you guys did well too.
 

Funstastic

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It's pretty simple.
No, it's actually much more complex. Probably why you didn't answer any of my questions.

As one example, tagging studies show that 10-20% of the gillnet catch are Northern District bound Coho. Remember, that is for the entire ND - several systems - only some of those are bound for the Little Su.

I won't get into the other many complexities, unless you want. No doubt some ND Coho get harvested. My point is that it is short-sighted, and perhaps conjecture, to say that the good ND Coho returns are largely attributed to the gillnetters sitting on their hands. There are many reasons, some which have nothing to do with the commercial fleet.
 

hoose35

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All I want to know is, how on earth can there be a good run of silvers this year?. According to some, the commercial fisherman have been over harvesting silvers for years, destroying the runs.


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MaximumPenetration

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All I want to know is, how on earth can there be a good run of silvers this year?. According to some, the commercial fisherman have been over harvesting silvers for years, destroying the runs.


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Luckily the silvers keep running later than the commercial fishery on normal years. This year it's nice to have such good silver fishing early in august. Typically it doesn't get good until the nets are done in the salt water.
 

Funstastic

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Luckily the silvers keep running later than the commercial fishery on normal years. This year it's nice to have such good silver fishing early in august. Typically it doesn't get good until the nets are done in the salt water.
Silver fishing can be quite good in early August while the nets are still fishing, and even during years when large commercial harvests are taking place at the same time. Not sure what system you are talking about, but hopefully you realize the nets don't fish all the time - only during restricted periods and only in certain locations. Their run timing (when/how they enter UCI and their spawning stream) is contingent on many factors - water level, water temp, tides, winds, daylight, and plain ole Mother Nature - some years early, some years late.
 

MaximumPenetration

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Silver fishing can be quite good in early August while the nets are still fishing, and even during years when large commercial harvests are taking place at the same time. Not sure what system you are talking about, but hopefully you realize the nets don't fish all the time - only during restricted periods and only in certain locations. Their run timing (when/how they enter UCI and their spawning stream) is contingent on many factors - water level, water temp, tides, winds, daylight, and plain ole Mother Nature - some years early, some years late.

I have a pretty solid understanding of the commercial fisheries in UCI. I have lived in the Kenai/Soldotna area for 35 of the 38 years of my life. I've been an avid fisherman since before I have a memory. While many factors play a role in how good sport fishing is, simple math reigns over all of them. If 600k coho enter the inlet to run to the various streams and 350k are caught in nets, there are 250k that will enter the river. If commercial fishing is restricted and only 100k of those are caught in nets, 500k will enter the river. Do you understand how fishing might be better with 500k versus 250k entering the river or is the math getting too complicated? Early season, the Kenai river is usually much slower for silver than later on primarily because the escapement goals for sockeye have been met and the nets continue to fish and hammer the coho. You can paint it any way you want, but I've witnessed this year in and year out and the years when commercial fisheries are restricted or minimized in early august, the sport fishing is ALWAYS better, even with high water and muddy conditions.
 

yamwrench

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All I want to know is, how on earth can there be a good run of silvers this year?. According to some, the commercial fisherman have been over harvesting silvers for years, destroying the runs.


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It only takes simple math to realize how the commies being restricted equals better silver fishing because there are more fish free to reach the rivers yet there is endless sarcasm directed towards anyone who even comments from a bunch of commies posted on here. On the other thread about how your fellow commies got caught fishing illegally you are uncharacteristically silent except to cry that someone used the word commie and I think he called me a bad word. No wonder you have so many people who love you commies.
 

Funstastic

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It only takes simple math to realize how the commies being restricted equals better silver fishing because there are more fish free to reach the rivers yet there is endless sarcasm directed towards anyone who even comments from a bunch of commies posted on here. On the other thread about how your fellow commies got caught fishing illegally you are uncharacteristically silent except to cry that someone used the word commie and I think he called me a bad word. No wonder you have so many people who love you commies.
Uhh...first, hoose35 isn't a "commie". He's a sport fisherman, and a danged good one. See, not all sport fishermen, especially those who understand UCI fisheries, share the same type of divisive vitriol toward commercial fisherman you show. It might be hard for you to understand, but it's OK for a sport fisherman to defend some of the constant misinformed hyperbole that gets flung against our good neighbors - commercial fishermen. Commercial fishing is not a four letter word.

Second, when explaining good silver fishing in the rivers, simple math = simple minded. Because nothing about UCI's mixed-stock fisheries is simple. Wanting a surplus of silvers in rivers so sport fishing is easier, is a selfish concept that ignores Alaska's constitutional sustained yield principle. Contrary to your thinking, the object of managing Alaska's fish is not to get more fish to enter the rivers, but to harvest those fish for a sustained yield by setting escapement goals. Managers restrict the various fisheries, including the commercial fishery, to obtain those goals. The goal has a range. Going under the range is a missed goal. Going over that range is a missed goal. It's not perfect, but it works the majority of the time.

Yes, of course the commercial guys catch silvers. And yes, of course those fish would be free to reach rivers if they didn't catch them. And of course the surplus fish would make sport fishing easier. But that is not how Alaska manages fish. It manages for multiple users, multiple stocks, multiple systems with a multitude of run timings, for a multiple species... all simultaneously. The object is to try to make all the different fisheries viable, provide ample opportunity to all users, and at the same time meet sustainable yield goals.

It is not in Alaska's best interest to see surplus returns of silvers in-river. Not because the sport fishing is excellent (we all like that), but because we are not sustaining yields. We know from studies that in salmon management, more fish in-river does not always equate to more fish returning, or future sustained yields.

If your point is that, due to the poor sockeye return and the commercial fishery's restrictions on fishing them, and that things are out of balance this year regarding that Sockeye/Coho mixed-stock harvest, and those restrictions have resulted in better than normal Coho fishing for you, then I would agree. Point made. However, I would not agree with the anti-commie mantra you are spewing. They are not villains. As Hoose35 pointed out, if your logic were true, you would not be experiencing such a good Coho return this year, nor would the Little Su have met or exceeded goals 70% of the time over the last two decades.
 

MaximumPenetration

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If your point is that, due to the poor sockeye return and the commercial fishery's restrictions on fishing them, and that things are out of balance this year regarding that Sockeye/Coho mixed-stock harvest, and those restrictions have resulted in better than normal Coho fishing for you, then I would agree. Point made. However, I would not agree with the anti-commie mantra you are spewing. They are not villains. As Hoose35 pointed out, if your logic were true, you would not be experiencing such a good Coho return this year, nor would the Little Su have met or exceeded goals 70% of the time over the last two decades.

My point to begin with was exactly as you state here, but you wanted to argue. I'm not totally against commercial fishing in UCI, but very few people making a living at it anymore and it seems to be more of a hobby. My greatest issue is with both commercial fishermen and guides who constantly fight and bicker about everything. And the fact that everyone seems to think the salmon belong to them, or the state, to divide up as we see fit. The salmon belong to nature, and nature did a fine job of taking care of them LONG before ANYONE fished them.
 

kenaibow fan

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My point to begin with was exactly as you state here, but you wanted to argue. I'm not totally against commercial fishing in UCI, but very few people making a living at it anymore and it seems to be more of a hobby. My greatest issue is with both commercial fishermen and guides who constantly fight and bicker about everything. And the fact that everyone seems to think the salmon belong to them, or the state, to divide up as we see fit. The salmon belong to nature, and nature did a fine job of taking care of them LONG before ANYONE fished them.
Well according to the state constitution those fish belong to Alaska and by in large the people. So the state has every right to manage the fisheries to sustain yield and fishing opportunities for all user groups. Yes, it sucks user groups bicker about their piece of the pie, but just as people are doing on here complaining about their piece of the pie. We should all enjoy the fishing because it is a rarity when the fishing is as good as it is right now for silvers high muddy water and all.
 

Funstastic

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I have a pretty solid understanding of the commercial fisheries in UCI. I have lived in the Kenai/Soldotna area for 35 of the 38 years of my life. I've been an avid fisherman since before I have a memory. While many factors play a role in how good sport fishing is, simple math reigns over all of them. If 600k coho enter the inlet to run to the various streams and 350k are caught in nets, there are 250k that will enter the river. If commercial fishing is restricted and only 100k of those are caught in nets, 500k will enter the river. Do you understand how fishing might be better with 500k versus 250k entering the river or is the math getting too complicated? Early season, the Kenai river is usually much slower for silver than later on primarily because the escapement goals for sockeye have been met and the nets continue to fish and hammer the coho. You can paint it any way you want, but I've witnessed this year in and year out and the years when commercial fisheries are restricted or minimized in early august, the sport fishing is ALWAYS better, even with high water and muddy conditions.
I thought this thread was about the Little Su, not the Kenai - at least that's what the title is. It matters because the two are apples and oranges regarding; how they are affected by their directed commercial fisheries, run timing, exploitation rates, enumeration, and production, to name a few. We can get into those detailed differences if you would like.

Regarding the Kenai - MaxPen, you have lived in the Kenai/Soldotna area and fished the Kenai almost as long as me. So you must know what a fabulous Coho sport fishery we have had over the last half-century. You must also know, especially from some of those years back when you were a kid, that we had some of the most fantastic early Coho sport fishing when the commercial nets fished much harder on late sockeye and early Coho. In fact I would contend the early Coho sport fishing was better than it is now (when the commercial nets don't fish as hard).

No doubt the late sockeye commercial fishery can effect the numbers of early Coho entering the Kenai, but it would be short-sighted to say the slower sport fishing early on is primarily because of that, since as you know the Kenai Coho's run timing is just starting and is much weaker at the beginning. It builds later into the fall season, and of course along with it so does better sport fishing. You also know those commercial nets don't fish every day, or all the time - usually if good numbers of Coho are being caught commercially, then good numbers exist, and good numbers are entering the river.

Good early run Coho sport fishing is usually a result of a good early run of Coho. When the commercial nets catch lots of early Coho, it's a tail-tale indicator that lots of early Coho will be in the river.
 

Funstastic

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My point to begin with was exactly as you state here, but you wanted to argue. I'm not totally against commercial fishing in UCI, but very few people making a living at it anymore and it seems to be more of a hobby. My greatest issue is with both commercial fishermen and guides who constantly fight and bicker about everything. And the fact that everyone seems to think the salmon belong to them, or the state, to divide up as we see fit. The salmon belong to nature, and nature did a fine job of taking care of them LONG before ANYONE fished them.
Not wanting to argue. However I do feel responsible to point out the problem with your assumption that the commercial fishery's restrictions are primarily why early Coho fishing is better. At best that is a half-baked analysis which you have failed to support by any facts, and your conclusion could mislead less informed readers, and further ignite the user group bickering. For example, the better fishing could be the result of a good, strong, early run.

Alaska's Constitution makes it clear how Alaska's salmon are to be managed. My opinion regarding salmon and nature is that man is part of nature and the salmon equation. :)
 

Arcticwildman

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May I suggest those supporting MSY read an article by Dr Sidney Holt published in 2011. Yes...THE world renowned Dr Sidney Holt who has more knowledge about fishery management than anybody on this forum could ever dream of having. Kind of dry reading but worth the read. I love his opening paragraph:

By Dr. Sidney Holt

Maximum Sustainable Yield: The Worst Idea in Fisheries Management
OCTOBER 3, 2011

Let me begin by explaining my title. MSY both enthrones and institutionalizes greed. It is a perfect example of pseudo-science with little empirical or sound theoretical basis. As a target for management of fisheries, or even as the anchor for so-called ‘reference points’, it is inadequate and its pursuit increases the likely unprofitability, and even collapse, of fisheries.


Full article:
https://breachingtheblue.com/2011/1...yield-the-worst-idea-in-fisheries-management/
 

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