.454 Redhawk barrel errosion - "nonsense" or real

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jwp500

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I remember when the 357Max first came out and flame cutting of the top strap was occuring. From what I heard and read, this cutting of the top strap started fairly quickly but also stopped after it ate into the metal a short distance and was not considered to be the problem that it first appeared to be. I was not aware of any forcing cone or barrel erosion in any of the current revolvers. Is this a problem in some of the 454 revolvers? And, if in fact it is a problem, should I be concerned about throat erosion in my Puma 454 carbine with max loads?


You are correct about the 357 Maximum and the flame cutting of the top strap

tvfinak is coming up with this BS and is nothing more than an internet TROLL
 

jwp500

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Errosion and flame cutting are very real- you can find many references and pictures on the internet if you google the subject. It happens to all of the high pressure revolvers- it isn't just Rugers. Trying to funnel a lot of hot gas and particles past a cylinder to barrel joint causes all sorts of problems. Rifles also have the same problem in their throats but they are typically burning large amounts of slower burning powders.

There were some excellent pictures of flame cutting on a SRH on one of the references I gave. I'm seeing damage on my .500 after less than a 1000 rds. but I'm buring lil'gun which is reputed to be a problem. My 629 barrel is also getting pretty rough at the end but I've shot a lot of rounds through it.

There are just so many steel alloys to chose from which are suitable for barrels and cylinders. The CarTech articles referenced some info of those used in the SRH and what is used in the Redhawk and what wasn't suitable for the .454 cartridge according to the Ruger engineers / designers. I don't know what S&W uses for the .460 and .500 - the info may be out there but I haven't ran across it. S&W did go to gain twist rifling on the .460 and highly polished the metal to help on the errosion and flame cutting - this we know.

From what I can find out so far it appears S&W mainly tried to avoid some of the issues of flame cutting and barrel errosion by using the very long cylinders. Longer cylinders lower the pressure and temperature at the cylinder to barrel junction and will help to avoid some of the errosion / cutting issues. I haven't confirmed this but the pieces seem to go together - the theory at least makes sense. I suspect the BFR guns with their longer cylinder have less problems than the Freedom Arms with their shorter cylinders. If S&W was smart they carefully studies both of them as well as the SRH- but perhaps I give them too much credit.

I'm leary of errosion / flame cutting in a .454 Redhawk for three reasons: the first is that Ruger has already told us that the 416 SS alloy isn't a good choice (remember the CarTech reference), second that the cylinder on the Redhawk is relatively short meaning the pressure and tempratures will be higher at the cylinder/barrel juction, and third the barrels appear to be cast - castings are less dense which makes them less errosive resistant (I've emailed Ruger but I don't know if they will confirm the RH barrel construction).

The speculation on my part so far is to why S&W made their cylinders so long and the method of construction for the Ruger RH barrels. There is a lot of speculation in general as to why the errosion / flame cutting occurs and how to avoid it. Some things we know work like closer cylinder to barrel gaps but closer gaps cause other problems. Some powders like Lil'gun are suspect as causing more errosion that others but I haven't seen a real study on it.

Based on what I now know I pretty confident that errosion will be a serious issue with a .454 Redhawk IF full pressure .454 loads are used. We know that SRH and FA guns have issues and their barrel materials are more resistant to errosion and flame cutting. A .454 Redhawk may be fine if reduced loas are used but then again it isn't really a .454 is it? Is a RH .454 with reduced loads suitable for bear defense? Probably- at least most of the time - but we'll never be 100% sure. I'll carry my .500 just in case it isn't :)

Hope this clear up at least part of the confusion. If not let me know and I'll try again.



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Steve8261948

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tvfinak is coming up with this BS and is nothing more than an internet TROLL
You catch more flys with honey than with name calling. Personally, I find your name calling rude and abusive. You've done this on several theads lately and I don't know why the Mods here put up with it! Please stick to the topic?
Steve
 

tvfinak

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Errosion, flame cutting, forcing cone problems etc

Errosion, flame cutting, forcing cone problems etc

The .357Max had serious problems in additon to the flame cutting of the top strap. Dan Wessson reportably shipped their revolvers with two barrels and adjusted the cylinder gap to the barest minimum.

Barrel and throat problems are hardly a myth - unlike the " lots of S&Ws with stretched and twisted frames".

You can find thousands of references, pictures, and stories of flame cutting and barrel problems with pistol calibers starting with the .357 Magnum (not Max). I've included a few below:

http://www.gobango.net/images2/flamecut-686--s113.jpg Note this is a S&W .44 mag

http://www.weaponscache.com/forum/pistols/2979-catistrophic-barrel-failure-44-magnum.html S&W also had some issues with their .357s but I haven't found any accounts of such failures with the .44 Please read all the comments to get the details

from the Ruger forum: http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=92080&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 note their are 5 pages of posts

another from rugerforum with some discussion of barrel steels: http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=113386&sid=9f1416d3a552bf162cad586497b47fc9


The CarTech story again: http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1608

and perhaps the best for last- with pictures: http://rugerforum.net/ruger-double-action/20875-forcing-cone-barrel-face-erosion-problem-maybe.html

There are lots more if you want to take the time to google the subject and its variations.

I would suspect throat errosion won't be an issue in the Puma since it a one piece barrel BUT be don't know anything about the steel and hardeneing etc. You might want to check out the throat after you shoot it a while.


I remember when the 357Max first came out and flame cutting of the top strap was occuring. From what I heard and read, this cutting of the top strap started fairly quickly but also stopped after it ate into the metal a short distance and was not considered to be the problem that it first appeared to be. I was not aware of any forcing cone or barrel erosion in any of the current revolvers. Is this a problem in some of the 454 revolvers? And, if in fact it is a problem, should I be concerned about throat erosion in my Puma 454 carbine with max loads?
 

jwp500

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You catch more flys with honey than with name calling. Personally, I find your name calling rude and abusive. You've done this on several theads lately and I don't know why the Mods here put up with it! Please stick to the topic?
Steve


A Spade is a Spade
 

dammdoggs

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I have a 5.5" brushed stainlessTRB in 454 casull... I probably have 1k rounds through it, maybe a bit more... I have almost exclusively been using lil gun powder, and .452 325gr GC Cast rounds, loaded out to 1300fps-ish... and I have not experienced any of the issues being described in this thread....
 

tvfinak

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Thanks for sharing your experience with the TRB - that revolver certainly deservers to be a part of any discussion of the .454 since it was one the affordable revolvers that helped make the .454 cartridge popular. I had a number of friends that had them but never owned one myself.

I'll look for some info specially on the Taurus revolver and see what I can find. Can you give us some data on the cylinder - barrel gap and cylinder length as well as the max loads you have shot in the gun?

Thanks!


I have a 5.5" brushed stainlessTRB in 454 casull... I probably have 1k rounds through it, maybe a bit more... I have almost exclusively been using lil gun powder, and .452 325gr GC Cast rounds, loaded out to 1300fps-ish... and I have not experienced any of the issues being described in this thread....
 

Steve8261948

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I have a 5.5" brushed stainlessTRB in 454 casull... I probably have 1k rounds through it, maybe a bit more... I have almost exclusively been using lil gun powder, and .452 325gr GC Cast rounds, loaded out to 1300fps-ish... and I have not experienced any of the issues being described in this thread....

TRB?
Steve
 

dammdoggs

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The Cylinder length is 1.757. The gap is about .005-.006

I use 25gr of lil gun, CCI450 Primers, with .452 325gr GC Cast FP (BH of about 15). This chronos at 1280

I also use 28gr of Lil Gun underneath .452 300gr speer (Jacketed) HPs... these chrono at 1360

All of my rounds I load to a MAX COAL of about 1.775
 

jwp500

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I have a 5.5" brushed stainlessTRB in 454 casull... I probably have 1k rounds through it, maybe a bit more... I have almost exclusively been using lil gun powder, and .452 325gr GC Cast rounds, loaded out to 1300fps-ish... and I have not experienced any of the issues being described in this thread....

I have had 2 Redhawks converted to 454 and have not experienced what is described in this thread.

Fact is that all cartridges produce a certain amount of erosion, some more than others. The 454 does not exhibit an unusaul amount
 

tvfinak

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Variables

Variables

There are certainly a lot of variables in revolver errosion. lil'gun appears to be one culprit- check this one out including the post from Bob Baker: http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,180437.0.html Freedom Arms appears to acknowledge the issue so I think we can safely assume it exists. There is also a post about using Lil'gun in a Puma and how the barrel heated up.

Higher pressures and heavy loads are certainly factors hence the errosion issue with the .454 cartridge IF loaded to maximum or near maximum loads. If loaded to lower pressures errosion shouldn't be an issue with the .454 anymore more than any other cartridge. The .454, 460, and 500 are the only common revolver rounds loaded to the 60-65,000 psi class and the .454 has been around the longest so I guess it could expected to see more cases of errosion in .454 guns.

Did you shoot the Redhawks with maximum or near maximum loads, factory loads, or handloads at less than maximum charges? Use Lil'gun or another powder? Any further information you care to share with us will be appreciated.


I have had 2 Redhawks converted to 454 and have not experienced what is described in this thread.

Fact is that all cartridges produce a certain amount of erosion, some more than others. The 454 does not exhibit an unusaul amount
 

rbuck351

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My guess would be a cyl gap on the large side. Also possible that most guns having this problem are shot using jacketed bullets that tend to be a little smaller than cast and less likely to bump up for a better seal. Just guessing here, but it seems strange that some guns are shooting many rounds without problem and others are having problems early on. There must be something different, but what? This problem doesn't seem to be brand specific, so can we get off the "brand x,y or z is just terrible" thing?
 

jwp500

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There are certainly a lot of variables in revolver errosion. lil'gun appears to be one culprit- check this one out including the post from Bob Baker: http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,180437.0.html Freedom Arms appears to acknowledge the issue so I think we can safely assume it exists. There is also a post about using Lil'gun in a Puma and how the barrel heated up.

Higher pressures and heavy loads are certainly factors hence the errosion issue with the .454 cartridge IF loaded to maximum or near maximum loads. If loaded to lower pressures errosion shouldn't be an issue with the .454 anymore more than any other cartridge. The .454, 460, and 500 are the only common revolver rounds loaded to the 60-65,000 psi class and the .454 has been around the longest so I guess it could expected to see more cases of errosion in .454 guns.

Did you shoot the Redhawks with maximum or near maximum loads, factory loads, or handloads at less than maximum charges? Use Lil'gun or another powder? Any further information you care to share with us will be appreciated.


I have allready [posted that I shot FACTORY loads, but you continue to ignore the answer

How much of a problem have YOU had with barrel errosion in a Ruger of any other revolver? Oh yea I remember now, NONE

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Steve8261948

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I posed the question of altering a Redhawk to Ruger and here's their response:
Comment / question:

I would like to purchase a Redhawk in .45 Colt and send it back to the factory to have a Super Redhawk cylinder fitted in .454 Casull. How much would this cost me? I think the four inch barrel in this caliber would be about perfect for carry while big game hunting.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Response:
Unfortunately, this is not a service we offer and do not recommend altering any of our firearms from the original configuration or caliber.

If you need further information, please visit our website at www.ruger.com or contact us at:

Revolvers, shotguns, rifles, 10/22 Charger Pistol: (603) 865-2442
Pistols: (928) 778-6555
Serial Number History Information: (603) 865-2424

Please note: This e-mail is sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message.

Sincerely,
Ruger Firearms
Pretty generic I know and this thread isn't to address this conversion but, they won't have anything to do with it?
Steve
 

tailwind

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Legal Jargon for the same reason we have locks on most guns these days; idiots.

That doesn't apply to you and I, Steve:)
 

Snyd

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This doesn't surprise me at all. They also don't recommend shooting hand loaded ammo, and to make sure you read the owners manual before shooting any of thier guns. Ask them if it's safe to shoot "Ruger Only" handloads in the 45 Colt Blackhawks and Redhawks. I removed the lawyer lingo from my Redhawk. Ruger won't do that for you either if you send the gun back to them. Puma says don't shoot 45 Colt ammo in the 454 Casull levergun either and will not remove the lawyer safety they added on to the Model 92 action. I had to do that myself as well.

I wonder what they think about Bowen sawing the frame extension off the Super Redhawk and installing either a Redhawk, custom or Colt barrel on the frame.

No manufacturer of anything be it firearms, automobiles, etc. is going to condone a modification of their product unless it's something they do in house or manufacture and sell the parts as a DIY upgrade. Call Smith and see if they will remove the lock from one of their new revolvers if you send it to them, or if they will convert a 45 Colt Mtn gun to a 454. Or if it;s safe to shoot 45 Schofield or Buffalo Bore 45 Colt ammo in the 45 Colt Mtn gun.

I posed the question of altering a Redhawk to Ruger and here's their response:
Comment / question:

I would like to purchase a Redhawk in .45 Colt and send it back to the factory to have a Super Redhawk cylinder fitted in .454 Casull. How much would this cost me? I think the four inch barrel in this caliber would be about perfect for carry while big game hunting.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Response:
Unfortunately, this is not a service we offer and do not recommend altering any of our firearms from the original configuration or caliber.

If you need further information, please visit our website at www.ruger.com or contact us at:

Revolvers, shotguns, rifles, 10/22 Charger Pistol: (603) 865-2442
Pistols: (928) 778-6555
Serial Number History Information: (603) 865-2424

Please note: This e-mail is sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message.

Sincerely,
Ruger Firearms
Pretty generic I know and this thread isn't to address this conversion but, they won't have anything to do with it?
Steve
 

Paul H

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Aren't forums like this to hash out thoughts like these? Never imagined them as places for name calling? Arguing yes but, you have stooped to new lows. If everyone can't post their thoughts, what's the use in discussing anything? Just what is your proof of your knowledge? Please, drop the name calling and get back onto subject?
Steve

Please tell me what name I called anyone? Also please factually prove that the op wasn't nonsense?
 

jwp500

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This doesn't surprise me at all. They also don't recommend shooting hand loaded ammo, and to make sure you read the owners manual before shooting any of thier guns. Ask them if it's safe to shoot "Ruger Only" handloads in the 45 Colt Blackhawks and Redhawks. I removed the lawyer lingo from my Redhawk. Ruger won't do that for you either if you send the gun back to them. Puma says don't shoot 45 Colt ammo in the 454 Casull levergun either and will not remove the lawyer safety they added on to the Model 92 action. I had to do that myself as well.

I wonder what they think about Bowen sawing the frame extension off the Super Redhawk and installing either a Redhawk, custom or Colt barrel on the frame.

No manufacturer of anything be it firearms, automobiles, etc. is going to condone a modification of their product unless it's something they do in house or manufacture and sell the parts as a DIY upgrade. Call Smith and see if they will remove the lock from one of their new revolvers if you send it to them, or if they will convert a 45 Colt Mtn gun to a 454. Or if it;s safe to shoot 45 Schofield or Buffalo Bore 45 Colt ammo in the 45 Colt Mtn gun.



Spot on as usual
 
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