GrassLakeRon
New member
Easy question.....bear gun at close quarters...404 Jeffery or 416 rigby?
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404 or 416....
- Thread starter GrassLakeRon
- Start date
I have a fair bit of experience shooting both, but never at a bear. My answer is easy. I'll rely on my original M-71 in 450 Alaskan. Much, MUCH handier to carry and faster to aim and shoot with its receiver sight. And wollop close enough to suit my tastes. If I didn't already own it, I'd be tracking down a Browning and rebarreling.
Neither..........I say go for it, if you want either or both. But go for it, without close quarters bear justification. Just say, "I want it".......period.
GrassLakeRon
New member
The whole story is I have a 45-70. If I take it out to 45-100, I get 404 jeffery performance. If I take it out to 45-120, then I get 416 rigby performance.
So 45-70, 45-100 or 45-120?
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So 45-70, 45-100 or 45-120?
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I think either would do the job if you do. For me it would be which one can be had at the most reasonable price, which one is the easiest to shoot in a hurry and which one would I shoot enough to be really good with.
I also think there are better choices for a gun that may be carried often and seldom needed. For the purpose you described, a .45 bore comes to mind.
I also think there are better choices for a gun that may be carried often and seldom needed. For the purpose you described, a .45 bore comes to mind.
To me, that perfectly describes a "..bear gun at close quarters." Having carried all three and faced down bear charges suddenly at close quarters, make mine a fast handling lever with plenty of oomph. Don't get a whole lot faster handling or oomphier than a lever 45.
GrassLakeRon
New member
How about a 450 nitro #2? Lower pressure 458 win mag plus another 100 fps....
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If you're determined to have a single shot for a the "bear gun" you originally proposed, it's a worthy round. I have a Sharpe's rifle in 50-140, but never even think of it as a bear gun. The round is certainly worthy launching it's 600-paper patch bullet over a great big cloud of white smoke, but the rifle. Ummmmm.... No.
shulse01
Member
404 Jeffery is the ticket. Used for 100 years on cape buffalo, it's a short range game stopper. I'd go with that.
mainer_in_ak
Well-known member
Heya Ron,
I've noticed that you've been inquiring about some of the older, lower pressure British made- African-hunting goldies. Pretty cool curiosity yah got there! Our American counter to those, is the 458 Win Mag, the 405 Winchester, and the 400 Whelen.
They operate at a higher pressure and use cases with less surface area, designed for blue collar Americans in standard rifles. They all work fine (the british or american rounds)
One needn't read further than Phil Shoemaker on his 458 win mag:
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/index.cfm?magid=75
President Thoedore Roosevelt on his 405:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/6/2/theodore-roosevelt-s-winchester-rifles/
Jim Corbett's killing of 33 man-eating tigers with this 450-400 nitro express:
https://frontierpartisans.com/3666/jim-corbetts-rifle/
John Pondoro Taylor's dozens if not hundreds of elephant downed with his 450-400 nitro express:
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/john-howard-taylor-pondoro-professional-ivory-hunter.15066/
some dreamy sht right there.........
mainer_in_ak
Well-known member
I personally differ from Phil's 458 win mag, though he or his coveted win mag cannot be topped for actually "stopping" bears. Nowadays, the ole 458 doesn't find itself housed in a nice standard action anymore, like Phil's standard mauser action.
What you'll find, is the 458 housed in a big ole, fat, sluggish magnum action weighing 9lbs or more: CZ or Winchester model 70. Not a problem for all you macho felllers, but too heavy for me.
I personally finsihed up reading some Elmer Keith, talking of the 400 Whelen as the only gun that could penetrate a raking shot on a big bull elk, and making it to the vitals.
I also read where he claimed the rim of a 405 Winchester could jam up an 1895 (exact words): "tighter n hell" if you didn't stack the magazine with each successive rim in front of the next. When Elmer was talkin Lever Guns: said he couldn't leave the power of the 405 winchester, in favor of the 348 winchester.
I read Jeff Cooper's 1984 article on the scout rifle evolution too. I've also been reading some Teddy Roosevelt stuff on his rapid repeating 1895.
What ended up happening, is I BUILT my own bear stopper. It's a scout scoped 1895 carbine, chambered in my 400 whelen-esque wildcat: The .410 Occumpaugh & Manzo, or 41 O&M for short, and weighs 7 lbs 4 oz without a scope. With scout scope, scout rail and rings: 8 lbs 3 oz all up.
Just like the 400 Whelen, I'm ballistically equivalent to the 450-400 nitro express, but in a rapid-repeating 4-down fighting weapon. Shooting 350 grain swift A-frames @ 2400 fps, I exceed the 405 winchester ballistics.
I wonder if ole Phil would like this weird gun? It sure is a dream to carry when the terrain gets tough.
What you'll find, is the 458 housed in a big ole, fat, sluggish magnum action weighing 9lbs or more: CZ or Winchester model 70. Not a problem for all you macho felllers, but too heavy for me.
I personally finsihed up reading some Elmer Keith, talking of the 400 Whelen as the only gun that could penetrate a raking shot on a big bull elk, and making it to the vitals.
I also read where he claimed the rim of a 405 Winchester could jam up an 1895 (exact words): "tighter n hell" if you didn't stack the magazine with each successive rim in front of the next. When Elmer was talkin Lever Guns: said he couldn't leave the power of the 405 winchester, in favor of the 348 winchester.
I read Jeff Cooper's 1984 article on the scout rifle evolution too. I've also been reading some Teddy Roosevelt stuff on his rapid repeating 1895.
What ended up happening, is I BUILT my own bear stopper. It's a scout scoped 1895 carbine, chambered in my 400 whelen-esque wildcat: The .410 Occumpaugh & Manzo, or 41 O&M for short, and weighs 7 lbs 4 oz without a scope. With scout scope, scout rail and rings: 8 lbs 3 oz all up.
Just like the 400 Whelen, I'm ballistically equivalent to the 450-400 nitro express, but in a rapid-repeating 4-down fighting weapon. Shooting 350 grain swift A-frames @ 2400 fps, I exceed the 405 winchester ballistics.
I wonder if ole Phil would like this weird gun? It sure is a dream to carry when the terrain gets tough.
GrassLakeRon
New member
Nothing but love coming your way
I have a project I'm working on. I want a stainless 458 caliber thumper, but I need to keep the pressure to 40kpsi. Thus my questions. I would love a US company to make a stainless rifle in a 458 win mag or 458 lott.
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GrassLakeRon
New member
Btw....7 pounds...
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mainer_in_ak
Well-known member
Heya Ron, just have the throat reamed a touch so you can load bullets out further. I don't think anything else would be necessary. Also, If that specific rifle was ever chambered in higher pressure cartridges, you should be able to load near Ruger #1-45-70 territory I'd imagine..
A higher BC and pointier 450 grain swift A-frame crimped out way further than the cannelure with a lee factory crimp die, and you'll never look back........
A higher BC and pointier 450 grain swift A-frame crimped out way further than the cannelure with a lee factory crimp die, and you'll never look back........
GrassLakeRon
New member
I friend of mine has quikload. A 45-100 2.6" will pitch a 400 grain to 2100 fps at 40kpsi. To get the same performance I would need to ream it out to a 45-120 3.25". So oddly enough the 450 is it.
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