375 R vs 416 for guide backup

[LeonardC]

Redlander: Midsouth Shooters Supply has Horn. 250grain CX in stock.

 

[s_crockett]

Great and interesting discussion … and not to hijack this thread, but although I earlier suggested the .404 Jeff (I have one) someone above mentioned the convenience of a powerful “6.5lb” rifle.

That reminded me that I have a 6.4lb Remington M600 carbine in .350 Remington Magnum. It has an 18.5” barrel and is presently zeroed with the 250grn Corelokt ammo (and an equivalent handload).

I know it’s a tough cartridge to find supporting components for, but it’s a great short-range black bear and hog killer in the lower 48. Has anyone used the .350RM, or know of its use, on the big AK bruins you guys are talking about? Thanks!

 

[ykwrangler]

Great and interesting discussion … and not to hijack this thread, but although I earlier suggested the .404 Jeff (I have one) someone above mentioned the convenience of a powerful “6.5lbs” rifle.

That reminded me that I have a 6.4lb Remington M600 carbine in .350 Remington Magnum. It has an 18.5” barrel and is presently zeroed with the 250grn Corelokt ammo (and an equivalent handload).

I know it’s a tough cartridge to find supporting components for, but it’s a great short-range black bear and hog killer in the lower 48. Has anyone used the .350RM, or know of its use, on the big AK bruins you guys are talking about? Thanks!

One of my friends was given a 350 remington 600 guide gun back in the day when one of the reps was hunting with him in Yukon. I'm not confident what grain bullet he shoots but 250 sounds right? Pretty sure hes had the same ammo for it since the 60's so he probably doesn't even know for sure lol. He says the round has worked well for him but has one story similar to the one I posted with the 9.3x62. He had a grizzly looking pretty sideways at him. First shot entered above the left eye and exited out the back of the skull, the bear dropped, got back up and he put the same shot above its right eye and that ended it. This was at less than 20 yards. The whole back of its head was gone after the two rounds.
Would like to know if any of you guys reading this have had similar or heard of similar experiences to this. Doesn't make sense at all.
My personal experience was with a 9.3x62 with a 250 accubond below the left eye and assuming his was a 250/225 core lokt and above the left eye. Everything else he says he has shot with his 350 rem hasn't gone very far.

 

[s_crockett]

Yeah, I've found in my limited use of it that the 350RM's 200grn or 250grn Corelokt load will drop stuff down here real quick, ... hogs, deer, and lower-48 black bears.

But those aren't anywhere near the size and weight of the big stuff you guys have to deal with, the brown bears and Moose. Plus our ranges tend to be short here. Not over 150-yds and most shots are 100-yds and in.

 

[SmokeRoss]

My experience with the Rem 600/660 models is that they stand straight up when fired due to the very short barrel and light weight. A follow up shot won't be as quick as it would with other models.

 

[Redlander]

Interesting discussion on handgun ammo with some overlap to rifles. Seems if you can get a deep penetrating projectile (probably > 24”) with an impact velocity > 2,200 fps and get the bullet to get as big as possible (either expanding or starting big) - in a rifle/cartridge combination that you shoot well - that is your goal.

 

[Redlander]

When protecting your clients, you are pretty much talking about distances from a max of 75 yards and closer. Fast Shot placement into a moving target. ""12 gauge Brenneke slug.""
I have used a 375H&H and a 416 Taylor ( 458 win mag necked down to 416) while hunting bear. The 416 Taylor ( which is a lot more mild than the annoying to shoot 416 Ruger) with 400grain flat points going 2300fps seemed to work better than a 375's 300 grain with hits in the same area.

I think sometimes a guide’s goal is not just protecting a client from a charging bear, but putting down a bear running away at whatever distance (0-300 yards) before it gets into the brush. Nobody wants to trail up a wounded bear in the brush.

 

[Ernie Scar]

Fwiw I have a 416 Ruger and have had 4 375 Rugers pass through my possession. I’m not a guide so my experience is limited but I have backed up both of my sons on their big coastal brown bears. Both sons were using their 375 Rugers when the hunts took place. The first bear one of my sons took was a monster 10.5’ bear shot at 109 yards with a 300 grain Swift A-frame, it was a good shot right behind the inside shoulder into the offside shoulder. The bear, not dropping instantly started to bite at the wound and spin, I shot my backup shot, with 400 gr 416 Swift A-frame as soon as I saw him start to spin and it was game over, show was over before it even started. The bear was on a knoll when we spotted him in a sea of alders and I didn’t want to go looking for a wounded bear in there, other than roll down the hill he made no other movement under his own power. The second bear, not as big, just under 10’ and a lot closer popped up out of the alders at about 50’. We knew he was coming our direction but weren’t sure where he’d pop out. He came out just across a small ravine, he was kinda rubbed and I was on the fence about shooting him but I saw him make three decisions while watching his face through my scope. His first decision in his eyes when he popped out and spotted us was “oh what’s that, food?” And I could see it in his posture, and just as quickly I seen in his eyes and face he went “oh this isn’t good these are men” kinda like a dog when he knows he’s in trouble for getting into the garbage and just as quickly I seen his face change to say “No, I’m the the alpha around here and nobody is going to push me out of here”. This all happened in probably 5 seconds or so but when I saw the last facial response I knew if we weren’t on the offensive we’d be on the defensive and we were way too close to let him make the decision. I told my boy to hammer him and he did, with the bear facing strait towards us with a 375 Ruger and 270 gr A-frame in the chest. The head dropped and the bear reared up and as he did I hit him again with my 416 and the 400 gr swift A- frame, he hit the ground rolled once and never moved again. These are two small samples, we caught both swift Aframes from the 375’s in both bears, neither 416 bullet was ever found as both had exits. I have no doubt that both bears would have died from the shots from the 375’s. I don’t know if another backup shot from a 375 in similar circumstances as we had would have done the same thing. I know there’s a ton of big brown bear guides who use the 375 H&H and Ruger for thes exact situations and donut with confidence, but you didn’t ask about a hunting rifle you asked about a backup rifle which means to me you’d be backing up someone who’d already wounded a bear not making the initial shot. My preference would be a 416 personally but that’s just based off my experience, it’s not gospel.

 

[ykwrangler]

Fwiw I have a 416 Ruger and have had 4 375 Rugers pass through my possession. I’m not a guide so my experience is limited but I have backed up both of my sons on their big coastal brown bears. Both sons were using their 375 Rugers when the hunts took place. The first bear one of my sons took was a monster 10.5’ bear shot at 109 yards with a 300 grain Swift A-frame, it was a good shot right behind the inside shoulder into the offside shoulder. The bear, not dropping instantly started to bite at the wound and spin, I shot my backup shot, with 400 gr 416 Swift A-frame as soon as I saw him start to spin and it was game over, show was over before it even started. The bear was on a knoll when we spotted him in a sea of alders and I didn’t want to go looking for a wounded bear in there, other than roll down the hill he made no other movement under his own power. The second bear, not as big, just under 10’ and a lot closer popped up out of the alders at about 50’. We knew he was coming our direction but weren’t sure where he’d pop out. He came out just across a small ravine, he was kinda rubbed and I was on the fence about shooting him but I saw him make three decisions while watching his face through my scope. His first decision in his eyes when he popped out and spotted us was “oh what’s that, food?” And I could see it in his posture, and just as quickly I seen in his eyes and face he went “oh this isn’t good these are men” kinda like a dog when he knows he’s in trouble for getting into the garbage and just as quickly I seen his face change to say “No, I’m the the alpha around here and nobody is going to push me out of here”. This all happened in probably 5 seconds or so but when I saw the last facial response I knew if we weren’t on the offensive we’d be on the defensive and we were way too close to let him make the decision. I told my boy to hammer him and he did, with the bear facing strait towards us with a 375 Ruger and 270 gr A-frame in the chest. The head dropped and the bear reared up and as he did I hit him again with my 416 and the 400 gr swift A- frame, he hit the ground rolled once and never moved again. These are two small samples, we caught both swift Aframes from the 375’s in both bears, neither 416 bullet was ever found as both had exits. I have no doubt that both bears would have died from the shots from the 375’s. I don’t know if another backup shot from a 375 in similar circumstances as we had would have done the same thing. I know there’s a ton of big brown bear guides who use the 375 H&H and Ruger for thes exact situations and donut with confidence, but you didn’t ask about a hunting rifle you asked about a backup rifle which means to me you’d be backing up someone who’d already wounded a bear not making the initial shot. My preference would be a 416 personally but that’s just based off my experience, it’s not gospel.

Thanks for sharing your experience, awesome stories and makes a good point for choosing the 416. Have never seen a hunter bring a 416 before so nice to hear stories from the field.
The only experience with a-frames in a 375 I have personally seen was a 58" bull moose a hunter shot. The first shot was at 130 yards behind the shoulder, 1 quartering away in the rump as he took off, 1 in the head between the base of the antler and the ear facing directly away from us, and one in the shoulder at 40 yards while he was on the ground and still breathing. None of the bullets exited and found none against the offside hide when skinned. They were handloads and he mentioned they were loaded to lower velocity to avoid any high pressure while hunting in Africa. Was at least expecting to find a bullet under the hide as is usually the case. Expected a bit more from that load than was seen but again these were handloads and not aware of what the muzzle velocity would have been.

 

[s_crockett]

My experience with the Rem 600/660 models is that they stand straight up when fired due to the very short barrel and light weight. A follow up shot won't be as quick as it would with other models.

About a week after I got my Rem M600, my 'smith replaced the hard, worn factory recoil pad with a perfectly fitted KickEzz pad. That changed the felt-recoil quite a bit. I wouldn't like shooting it off a bench for 50-rds, but I don't find it bad at all when shooting in typical "field" positions.

Mine also wears a 3-pt Ching sling with QD swivels. It's quick to sling up in and get a tight hold for a shot, and the tightness of the sling's tension somewhat anchors the front end. The recoil is more back into the pocket of my shoulder and less muzzle flip.

I think you're right though about follow-up shots with the M600 carbine not being as quick as an 8lb-10lb magnum rifle having the same recoil force.

 

[SmokeRoss]

I'll share this one just for fun. I shot a 9 1/2 boar brown bear with an old Winchester model 71 lever gun in .348. Handloaded Hornady 250 grain bullets. 1st shot was behind the shoulder as he was angling away. He rolled up like a caterpillar that was poked with a stick. Groaning and growling, then rolled right up onto his feet and started away. I put another round in almost the same place with no shown effect. I rammed 2 more rounds into the .348. I could hear him in the brush making a huge racket and my buddy and I went after him. We got within 25 yards before we could get a good look at him in the brush. He was broadside. I hammered him in the shoulder and he went down and bounced back up. Did it again, same results. Did that again twice more with similar results except that each time he bounced back up he was turned more towards our direction. BTW, my friend shot twice with a .270 with 150's with no noticeable effect. I knew I only had the one round left and still not wanting to ruin the skull, I planted one right behind the skull. He dropped and never even quivered. I had taken out the first vertebrae. I levered the gun open and not taking my eyes off the bear dropped a round into the chamber and closed the action very quickly, and then shoved another through the loading gate. He was done. Several of the 7 rounds I put into him had exited the far side. A couple were against the hide. The old .348 tore him up pretty good, but no doubt a big magnum would have done better. The first shot would have eventually killed him but would have involved tracking. But let me tell you brothers, that was exciting.

 

[4merguide]

But let me tell you brothers, that was exciting.

Too exciting for my liking, thank you...

 

[mark knapp]

Try finding any of those rounds in Alaska right now, but the .416 Ruger is on shelves.

To answer the main question, .375 bullets for components will generally be easier to obtain for reloading. As many have said, pick a rifle that is well balanced and that you can shoot well off-hand and from various field positions. You can check my reply to a post earlier this year to see my rifle and bullet that drove lengthwise through an inland grizzly. It’s a Model 70 375 H&H with a D’Arcy Echols fiberglass stock and a fluted, shortened barrel. It’ll feed empty cases almost as well as loaded cases, though loaded cases feed like butter. If I were a guide, I’d have no problem relying on it. However, I do have a Mauser in 7mm magnum that I picked up very cheap and I’ve kept it to maybe have rechambered or rebarreled to .416 Ruger.

If I were a client on a brown bear hunt, I’d like the guide to have a rifle in .35 Whelen, 9.3x62 or bigger cartridge, and I’d want them to be good using it.

P.S., If anyone has any .375 H&H Hornady 250 gr. GMX/CX, I’m on the look. If you’d like to sell send me a PM.

Day in and day out, Anchorage right now not withstanding, .458 Win. and .375 H&H Mag. have consistently been the easiest to get and load for of the big bores .

.35 Whelen gets a lot of good hype but falls about 25 percent lower in muzzle energy than any of the top end big bores. That's a considerable loss, and not for me.

 

[mark knapp]

I'll share this one just for fun. I shot a 9 1/2 boar brown bear with an old Winchester model 71 lever gun in .348. Handloaded Hornady 250 grain bullets. 1st shot was behind the shoulder as he was angling away. He rolled up like a caterpillar that was poked with a stick. Groaning and growling, then rolled right up onto his feet and started away. I put another round in almost the same place with no shown effect. I rammed 2 more rounds into the .348. I could hear him in the brush making a huge racket and my buddy and I went after him. We got within 25 yards before we could get a good look at him in the brush. He was broadside. I hammered him in the shoulder and he went down and bounced back up. Did it again, same results. Did that again twice more with similar results except that each time he bounced back up he was turned more towards our direction. BTW, my friend shot twice with a .270 with 150's with no noticeable effect. I knew I only had the one round left and still not wanting to ruin the skull, I planted one right behind the skull. He dropped and never even quivered. I had taken out the first vertebrae. I levered the gun open and not taking my eyes off the bear dropped a round into the chamber and closed the action very quickly, and then shoved another through the loading gate. He was done. Several of the 7 rounds I put into him had exited the far side. A couple were against the hide. The old .348 tore him up pretty good, but no doubt a big magnum would have done better. The first shot would have eventually killed him but would have involved tracking. But let me tell you brothers, that was exciting.

That's very typical and I'm not surprised to hear it. Grizzlies/brown bears run on adrenaline for a long time after they should be dead, they don't know they're dead. They can go a long way or hurt someone long before they die unless a big bore is used to knock them down.

Thanks for the story.

 

[mark knapp]

Here's an article sent to me by a well read individual that has been following this thread. The article is old and while the principals all apply, there have been some new rounds introduced since it was written.

In my opinion many of the newer rounds that have been introduced give you more speed and a flatter trajectory but not very much more. Some of them amount to just splitting hairs, and are appealing to those shooters that are apt to chase every new round that comes along, just to have one.

Here's the article.

Loading…

www.fs.usda.gov

Lots of good information on here.

 

[SmokeRoss]

Here's an article sent to me by a well read individual that has been following this thread. The article is old and while the principals all apply, there have been some new rounds introduced since it was written.

In my opinion many of the newer rounds that have been introduced give you more speed and a flatter trajectory but not very much more. Some of them amount to just splitting hairs, and are appealing to those shooters that are apt to chase every new round that comes along, just to have one.

Here's the article.

Loading…

www.fs.usda.gov

Lots of good information on here.

Hard to beat tried and true. Especially when it's more available. My family has a Winchester 95 in .405 that my great grandfather bought at the urging of President Roosevelt. I used it to kill caribou back in the 90's. My grand dad used to shoot game lengthwise with it. (I never recovered a bullet) We were always on the lookout for ammo for it back when I was a youngster as you seldom ever saw that ammo on the shelf and no one in my immediate family was a hand loader then. The rifle is still in the family. I have a different .405 I plan to use again this year.

 

[s_crockett]

Here's an article sent to me by a well read individual that has been following this thread. The article is old and while the principals all apply, there have been some new rounds introduced since it was written.

In my opinion many of the newer rounds that have been introduced give you more speed and a flatter trajectory but not very much more. Some of them amount to just splitting hairs, and are appealing to those shooters that are apt to chase every new round that comes along, just to have one.

Here's the article.

Loading…

www.fs.usda.gov

Lots of good information on here.

Thanks for posting that link! Really interesting chart.

Couple of thoughts ....

I see my .350 Rem. Mag is rated 24th overall and 9th from the last cartridge listed, the 300 Win Mag. Plus, they specify the 200grn load (@ an aspirational 2568fps) from an 18.5" barrel, which clearly indicates the Rem Model 600 was their test gun rather than its successor, the Model 660, with a 20" barrel.

The alternate load for the .350RM, a 250grn slug @ 2400+fps, isn't listed. Nor is the .35 Whelen listed, which someone mentioned above, but it would probably fall below the .358 Norma Mag, the #20 cartridge on that list.

The .404 Jeff's 400grn load (soft-point or solid @ 2125fps m.v., per Jeffrey's original specs, or 2350fps if firing Hornady ammo) would likely be right in there with the .458 Win Mag and the 460 Wby, #1 and #2 respectively.

 

[4merguide]

The alternate load for the .350RM, a 250grn slug @ 2400+fps, isn't listed. Nor is the .35 Whelen listed,

Like he said, it's an old article. I believe some calibers would be moved around quite a bit in rank now just because the ammo has changed so much, much less the many new calibers that have become available. Case in point, look at the handgun slugs.... nothing over 246 grains.

 

[mark knapp]

Thanks for posting that link! Really interesting chart.

Couple of thoughts ....

I see my .350 Rem. Mag is rated 24th overall and 9th from the last cartridge listed, the 300 Win Mag. Plus, they specify the 200grn load (@ an aspirational 2568fps) from an 18.5" barrel, which clearly indicates the Rem Model 600 was their test gun rather than its successor, the Model 660, with a 20" barrel.

The alternate load for the .350RM, a 250grn slug @ 2400+fps, isn't listed. Nor is the .35 Whelen listed, which someone mentioned above, but it would probably fall below the .358 Norma Mag, the #20 cartridge on that list.

The .404 Jeff's 400grn load (soft-point or solid @ 2125fps m.v., per Jeffrey's original specs, or 2350fps if firing Hornady ammo) would likely be right in there with the .458 Win Mag and the 460 Wby, #1 and #2 respectively.

Actually, if you compare the energy .404 Jeff (4,100ftlbs), with the .458 (4871) and .460W (6204) it falls a little bit lower, more like the >375 H&H, a very fine rifle. Compare the Jeff. 4,100ftlbs of energy/2,600 ft/s velocity with the .375's 4241ftbls/2659ft/s.

IMO, the .404 Jeffery is a very fine round. My problem with it is, as you said, the ammo for it and loading components can be very hard to find. For a personal weapon it's great, as a guide weapon, I'd get something more common.

 

[Daveinthebush]

It would be nice if they updated the loads. 3" 12-gauge slug, .35 Whelen 250 or 280 grain, .44 mag. 300 grain. .300 Win mag. with a better bullet selection. I see that the .358 Win. was ranked higher than the .350 Rem. with higher velocity. I wonder if the results would be different with better bullet selection.

The 7600 in .35 Whelen came out in 1988 in .35 Whelen and I snatched the first one I could find. It was my selection as it points the same as my 870 and I am left-handed. It is the fastest pointing rifle I have.

Nice article though. Lots to analyze in there.