375 R vs 416 for guide backup

[4merguide]

....My effective range is certainly out to 200 yards with any of my brown bear rifles and much further with more time on a steady rest. None of that kind of shooting is recommended and, again, depends on field of fire for follow-up shots....

I totally agree. Imo, that first shot is what counts, and on a big brownie should be within 100 yards.

 

[Daveinthebush]

Shots will only be used for wounded/charging bears at various distances. Thanks a lot!

If I was getting into a closeup situation my preference would be a 12 gauge with 5 rounds of 600 grain Dixie slugs or Brenneke Dangerous game slugs.

Just an option.

 

[mark knapp]

If I was getting into a closeup situation my preference would be a 12 gauge with 5 rounds of 600 grain Dixie slugs or Brenneke Dangerous game slugs.

Just an option.

Not to jump all over you, but when I last did calculations, a 12 guage slug didn't come anywhere close in energy and trajectory of the .375 or even the .50 cal revolver (Linebaugh) I built with the rounds I made up and cronagraphed.

And remember, long range shooting and energy for knock down power is required. Knock down power will not necessarily kill a bear right away, but it is intended to slow or knock a bear down to buy time for more followup shots. It's important.

I'm not so sure why so many endorse shot gun and slugs for bear protection. In my opinion, its weak at best. It might help for homestead but not for bear guiding.

Take care.

 

[Daveinthebush]

I can't find the Dixie slug site anymore. I have the 600 grain (3176 ft lbs ME???) The newer 870 grain slugs I won't even try.

"The Dixie IXL-DGS is .730" and weighs 870 grs. It is designed for rifled barrels and .729"/.730" bore smoothbore with cylinder chokes at 1200 fps."

The print on my box wore off so no energy.

Brenneke I can't find their energy levels. "Up close" these are going to leave a hole all the way thru.

 

[mark knapp]

I can't find the Dixie slug site anymore. I have the 600 grain (3176 ft lbs ME???) The newer 870 grain slugs I won't even try.

"The Dixie IXL-DGS is .730" and weighs 870 grs. It is designed for rifled barrels and .729"/.730" bore smoothbore with cylinder chokes at 1200 fps."

The print on my box wore off so no energy.

Brenneke I can't find their energy levels. "Up close" these are going to leave a hole all the way thru.
View attachment 2784798

.375 H&H = 4,263 fpds and remember about the long range thing. It makes all talk of a shotgun just conjecture.

Incidentally, when we talk about terminal ballistics, we aren't looking for something that punches a hole going in and going out. Ideally we want a bullet to mushroom to about twice it's original size, retain most of it's weight end up just under the skin on the far side. That way, the animal eats all the energy that is served up to it.

The last .458 bullet I recovered from a brown bear was on the back side, .950" in diameter and almost 500 grains in weight. It was a Grizzly Bonded core bullet, left the muzzle at a little over 2000 fps, shot at something over 100 yards. I have confidence that a well placed .458 bullet will put a bear on its butt. I'm not so sure about any shot gun slug.

 

[ykwrangler]

As a relatively experienced guide, I understand the importance of shot placement, rifle familiarity and field conditions.

I'm here to ask about any noticeable difference/advantage of the 416 in the field compared to the 375 or the lack thereof.
Also these are not Brown bears, they are inland grizzly and not many in the far north get over 8' but they are pretty tenacious characters.
Most bears shot are off moose carcass in thick cover.
Stopping a bear that is about to get into the willows that could potentially lead to a close range charge is something I consider to be important as preventatice maintenance, at least to me. Have been charged before and know how fast it happens in thick cover and would ideally like to avoid getting chewed on or shot in the ass by my hunter.
Have been in situations when tracking wounded bears where a longer shot has been presented while the bear is moving through an opening or clearing before hitting thick cover again. There was not time to range or get a rest.
This situation also led to me getting my right ear drum getting blown out by the clients muzzle brake, which only happened because I wasn't comfortable with the roughly 250 yard shot on the mountain side while tracking with my open sighted 45-70 at the time, this was when I first started guiding and thought a close range rifle for stopping charges was all I would need. There was no time to get behind the client before the bear hit the willows again. I pointed, he swung, and my ear quickly became useless and I couldnt even talk without wearing an earplug in that ear for about two weeks after. Bear dropped at the shot then got up and bolted into willows. Less than ideal.
That boar got mauled by a big sow with two cubs right after the client failed to place an accurate shot and the bear was very adrenalized after and covered allot of ground before we caught up to him. This was a berry patch on the edge of treeline.
You are no doubt well aware anything and everything can happen when you are out there in the bush.

My question in regards to the 416 is if it is a noticeable upgrade in performance or if it is just more recoil and a Ford vs Chevy preference when compared to the 375.
It is obvious if pure knockdown was the goal and nothing else, a 458 win is the answer and I have carried one. But have been in a few situations now where I desired a flatter trajectory with as much power as possible while being able to shoot accurately without a muzzle brake from field positions. The 458 has a 1-4 scope and is very accurate with 450 tsx but factory ammo is scarce these days for it therefore my ability to extensively practice with it at longer distance is limited, and the 2' of drop at 300 yards isn't something I want to be thinking about "IF" there is a need to shoot a wounded bear in the ass before it hits the willows in the evening. With the clients permission of course.

Also have had a clients wounded bear take a 9.3x62 bullet under the left eye at about 40 yards and the bullet penetrated almost the full length of the bear. The bear believe it or not ran about 20-30 yards before collapsing and when skinned the skull was shattered and brain matter oozing out. This and another guide friends similar experience with a bear shot above the left eye, plus my blown ear drum from not being comfortable with taking the longer shot are what have brought me to the questions I have come here with regarding the 416.

Starting to wonder if my 300 WSM with a 200 grain bullet is going to be just as effective as the larger calibers while having a flat trajectory and being a light (6.5 lb) and handy rifle.

Definitely an overthought topic, but its winter and the situations have left me desiring more gun than 9.3 and 375, IF practically possible. If there is no practical difference based on anyone's field experience, until a guy steps to the 458 caliber, then that's that.

The 416 remington from ballistic charts seems to have the same muzzle energy as the 458 win mag but similar trajectory to the 375 and .366. Which is why I bought the rifle. It shoots well with 400 grain A-frames.

I may never even have to fire another shot for the rest of my guiding career and hopefully that it true.

It's still -31 here at the end of March and it's just fun talking about firearms and experiences with fellow enthusiasts while waiting for the warmer weather to show up, and the situations encountered while guiding have sparked an interest in having a conversation with you gentlemen who have personally seen lots of big bears shot with various calibers in the field and if you have noticed a difference.
Best of wishes and thanks for the replies and insight.

 

[mark knapp]

As a relatively experienced guide, I understand the importance of shot placement, rifle familiarity and field conditions.

I'm here to ask about any noticeable difference/advantage of the 416 in the field compared to the 375 or the lack thereof.
Also these are not Brown bears, they are inland grizzly and not many in the far north get over 8' but they are pretty tenacious characters.
Most bears shot are off moose carcass in thick cover.
Stopping a bear that is about to get into the willows that could potentially lead to a close range charge is something I consider to be important as preventatice maintenance, at least to me. Have been charged before and know how fast it happens in thick cover and would ideally like to avoid getting chewed on or shot in the ass by my hunter.
Have been in situations when tracking wounded bears where a longer shot has been presented while the bear is moving through an opening or clearing before hitting thick cover again. There was not time to range or get a rest.
This situation also led to me getting my right ear drum getting blown out by the clients muzzle brake, which only happened because I wasn't comfortable with the roughly 250 yard shot on the mountain side while tracking with my open sighted 45-70 at the time, this was when I first started guiding and thought a close range rifle for stopping charges was all I would need. There was no time to get behind the client before the bear hit the willows again. I pointed, he swung, and my ear quickly became useless and I couldnt even talk without wearing an earplug in that ear for about two weeks after. Bear dropped at the shot then got up and bolted into willows. Less than ideal.
That boar got mauled by a big sow with two cubs right after the client failed to place an accurate shot and the bear was very adrenalized after and covered allot of ground before we caught up to him. This was a berry patch on the edge of treeline.
You are no doubt well aware anything and everything can happen when you are out there in the bush.

My question in regards to the 416 is if it is a noticeable upgrade in performance or if it is just more recoil and a Ford vs Chevy preference when compared to the 375.
It is obvious if pure knockdown was the goal and nothing else, a 458 win is the answer and I have carried one. But have been in a few situations now where I desired a flatter trajectory with as much power as possible while being able to shoot accurately without a muzzle brake from field positions. The 458 has a 1-4 scope and is very accurate with 450 tsx but factory ammo is scarce these days for it therefore my ability to extensively practice with it at longer distance is limited, and the 2' of drop at 300 yards isn't something I want to be thinking about "IF" there is a need to shoot a wounded bear in the ass before it hits the willows in the evening. With the clients permission of course.

Also have had a clients wounded bear take a 9.3x62 bullet under the left eye at about 40 yards and the bullet penetrated almost the full length of the bear. The bear believe it or not ran about 20-30 yards before collapsing and when skinned the skull was shattered and brain matter oozing out. This and another guide friends similar experience with a bear shot above the left eye, plus my blown ear drum from not being comfortable with taking the longer shot are what have brought me to the questions I have come here with regarding the 416.

Starting to wonder if my 300 WSM with a 200 grain bullet is going to be just as effective as the larger calibers while having a flat trajectory and being a light (6.5 lb) and handy rifle.

Definitely an overthought topic, but its winter and the situations have left me desiring more gun than 9.3 and 375, IF practically possible. If there is no practical difference based on anyone's field experience, until a guy steps to the 458 caliber, then that's that.

The 416 remington from ballistic charts seems to have the same muzzle energy as the 458 win mag but similar trajectory to the 375 and .366. Which is why I bought the rifle. It shoots well with 400 grain A-frames.

I may never even have to fire another shot for the rest of my guiding career and hopefully that it true.

It's still -31 here at the end of March and it's just fun talking about firearms and experiences with fellow enthusiasts while waiting for the warmer weather to show up, and the situations encountered while guiding have sparked an interest in having a conversation with you gentlemen who have personally seen lots of big bears shot with various calibers in the field and if you have noticed a difference.
Best of wishes and thanks for the replies and insight.

Hi YK, Certainly, there's a lot to talk about.

Here's some stuff to think about. Grizzlies and brown bears are the same animal as far as tenaciousness goes, maybe, except for size, we are talking about the same animal.

We don't ask the hunter for permission to back him up, ever. A guides job is, among other things, to keep everybody safe, and make sure nothing gets away wounded. We can't do that if we wait for permission. Brown/grizzly bears are almost never "One shot kills". The hunter is instructed to keep shooting until told to stop. I start to shoot as soon as I think the hunter needs help on any game, especially on brown/grizzly bears. I don't ask for permission.

We never bring hunters into the woods when we go in after a wounded bear, for several reasons. When you go into the woods and hear a stick snap, you need to know who made the noise. You know immediately if you yourself makes a noise but if you hear something else make a noise, and the hunter is not in there, your action can be immediate. You don't have to decide, first, who made the noise. Your reaction can be immediate. The saved time can save your life. You don't get hurt and he doesn't get hurt.

A guide I know brought the hunter into the woods with him after a wounded bear, and the hunter got mauled. Hunters seldom have what it takes to take care of a wounded bear in the woods. That's why guys like us are hired. The guide couldn't help because the bear and the hunter were all mixed-up amongst each other.

The hunter stays outside the wood patch, at a good vantage point, to watch its perimeter, shoot the bear, if needed and if the situation presents itself, or tell where the bear goes, afterward, if it tries to sneak out undetected. The hunter is told to never shoot into the patch of woods you are going into.

Since you already own a .416, learn to shoot it, shoot it a lot, you want your shooting of it to become second nature.

Incidentally, I would take the extra power of a large caliber over the flatter trajectory of a lighter, faster round any day. I can learn to shoot a bullet with a two foot drop, as easily as an 18 inch drop, but I cant do anything about the less energy of a lighter weapon. I can load it up to optimum, but I can do that with the heavier weapon too.

These, are only my opinions, take them for what they are worth. I do have behind me the knowledge and experience of some of the finest brown bear/grizzly men in Alaska.

You are developing, but for others, I'd never choose a shot gun, a short magnum, or a .45/70 for a grizzly gun. I'd pick a .300 mag over those (and do in multi-species hunts that include grizzly). Also, I stay away from monolithic bullets, a bonded core, "A" frame bullet out-performs them in terminal ballistics everyday, hands down. That's from over thirty years of bullet recovery.

Nice talking to you.

Have fun, good luck, stay safe.

 

[Float Pilot]

When protecting your clients, you are pretty much talking about distances from a max of 75 yards and closer. Fast Shot placement into a moving target. ""12 gauge Brenneke slug.""
I have used a 375H&H and a 416 Taylor ( 458 win mag necked down to 416) while hunting bear. The 416 Taylor ( which is a lot more mild than the annoying to shoot 416 Ruger) with 400grain flat points going 2300fps seemed to work better than a 375's 300 grain with hits in the same area.

 

[SmokeRoss]

Do you have a preference in bullet weight with the 375?

300 grain Barnes X.

 

[mark knapp]

When protecting your clients, you are pretty much talking about distances from a max of 75 yards and closer. Fast Shot placement into a moving target. ""12 gauge Brenneke slug.""
I have used a 375H&H and a 416 Taylor ( 458 win mag necked down to 416) while hunting bear. The 416 Taylor ( which is a lot more mild than the annoying to shoot 416 Ruger) with 400grain flat points going 2300fps seemed to work better than a 375's 300 grain with hits in the same area.

The problem is, you can't carry two long guns. You have to make a choice between a rifle and a shotgun long before the hunt starts and since long range shots are going to happen, shotguns are not an answer. The .375 H&H or the .458 Win. is the ticket IMHO because you don't have to worry about getting ammo or loading supplies for them.

 

[SmokeRoss]

Hi YK, Certainly, there's a lot to talk about.

Here's some stuff to think about. Grizzlies and brown bears are the same animal as far as tenaciousness goes, maybe, except for size, we are talking about the same animal.

We don't ask the hunter for permission to back him up, ever. A guides job is, among other things, to keep everybody safe, and make sure nothing gets away wounded. We can't do that if we wait for permission. Brown/grizzly bears are almost never "One shot kills". The hunter is instructed to keep shooting until told to stop. I start to shoot as soon as I think the hunter needs help on any game, especially on brown/grizzly bears. I don't ask for permission.

We never bring hunters into the woods when we go in after a wounded bear, for several reasons. When you go into the woods and hear a stick snap, you need to know who made the noise. You know immediately if you yourself makes a noise but if you hear something else make a noise, and the hunter is not in there, your action can be immediate. You don't have to decide, first, who made the noise. Your reaction can be immediate. The saved time can save your life. You don't get hurt and he doesn't get hurt.

A guide I know brought the hunter into the woods with him after a wounded bear, and the hunter got mauled. Hunters seldom have what it takes to take care of a wounded bear in the woods. That's why guys like us are hired. The guide couldn't help because the bear and the hunter were all mixed-up amongst each other.

The hunter stays outside the wood patch, at a good vantage point, to watch its perimeter, shoot the bear, if needed and if the situation presents itself, or tell where the bear goes, afterward, if it tries to sneak out undetected. The hunter is told to never shoot into the patch of woods you are going into.

Since you already own a .416, learn to shoot it, shoot it a lot, you want your shooting of it to become second nature.

Incidentally, I would take the extra power of a large caliber over the flatter trajectory of a lighter, faster round any day. I can learn to shoot a bullet with a two foot drop, as easily as an 18 inch drop, but I cant do anything about the less energy of a lighter weapon. I can load it up to optimum, but I can do that with the heavier weapon too.

These, are only my opinions, take them for what they are worth. I do have behind me the knowledge and experience of some of the finest brown bear/grizzly men in Alaska.

You are developing, but for others, I'd never choose a shot gun, a short magnum, or a .45/70 for a grizzly gun. I'd pick a .300 mag over those (and do in multi-species hunts that include grizzly). Also, I stay away from monolithic bullets, a bonded core, "A" frame bullet out-performs them in terminal ballistics everyday, hands down. That's from over thirty years of bullet recovery.

Nice talking to you.

Have fun, good luck, stay safe.

My brother's business partner went with his 2 guides after a wounded bear he had hit the evening before. The guides shot the hunter when the wounded bear charged. He's DEAD. The hunter that is. Lawsuit pending. Happened in Canada.

 

[ykwrangler]

Hi YK, Certainly, there's a lot to talk about.

Here's some stuff to think about. Grizzlies and brown bears are the same animal as far as tenaciousness goes, maybe, except for size, we are talking about the same animal.

We don't ask the hunter for permission to back him up, ever. A guides job is, among other things, to keep everybody safe, and make sure nothing gets away wounded. We can't do that if we wait for permission. Brown/grizzly bears are almost never "One shot kills". The hunter is instructed to keep shooting until told to stop. I start to shoot as soon as I think the hunter needs help on any game, especially on brown/grizzly bears. I don't ask for permission.

We never bring hunters into the woods when we go in after a wounded bear, for several reasons. When you go into the woods and hear a stick snap, you need to know who made the noise. You know immediately if you yourself makes a noise but if you hear something else make a noise, and the hunter is not in there, your action can be immediate. You don't have to decide, first, who made the noise. Your reaction can be immediate. The saved time can save your life. You don't get hurt and he doesn't get hurt.

A guide I know brought the hunter into the woods with him after a wounded bear, and the hunter got mauled. Hunters seldom have what it takes to take care of a wounded bear in the woods. That's why guys like us are hired. The guide couldn't help because the bear and the hunter were all mixed-up amongst each other.

The hunter stays outside the wood patch, at a good vantage point, to watch its perimeter, shoot the bear, if needed and if the situation presents itself, or tell where the bear goes, afterward, if it tries to sneak out undetected. The hunter is told to never shoot into the patch of woods you are going into.

Since you already own a .416, learn to shoot it, shoot it a lot, you want your shooting of it to become second nature.

Incidentally, I would take the extra power of a large caliber over the flatter trajectory of a lighter, faster round any day. I can learn to shoot a bullet with a two foot drop, as easily as an 18 inch drop, but I cant do anything about the less energy of a lighter weapon. I can load it up to optimum, but I can do that with the heavier weapon too.

These, are only my opinions, take them for what they are worth. I do have behind me the knowledge and experience of some of the finest brown bear/grizzly men in Alaska.

You are developing, but for others, I'd never choose a shot gun, a short magnum, or a .45/70 for a grizzly gun. I'd pick a .300 mag over those (and do in multi-species hunts that include grizzly). Also, I stay away from monolithic bullets, a bonded core, "A" frame bullet out-performs them in terminal ballistics everyday, hands down. That's from over thirty years of bullet recovery.

Nice talking to you.

Have fun, good luck, stay safe.

Thank you for the awesome reply. Appreciate your input and experience greatly, especially on going in after wounded bears. I learned differently and your way on that makes allot more sense. Thank you! Awesome chatting

 

[ykwrangler]

My brother's business partner went with his 2 guides after a wounded bear he had hit the evening before. The guides shot the hunter when the wounded bear charged. He's DEAD. The hunter that is. Lawsuit pending. Happened in Canada.

Good lesson to learn from for other guides out there. Thank you for sharing this story and your other experiences

 

[ykwrangler]

Hi YK, Certainly, there's a lot to talk about.

Here's some stuff to think about. Grizzlies and brown bears are the same animal as far as tenaciousness goes, maybe, except for size, we are talking about the same animal.

We don't ask the hunter for permission to back him up, ever. A guides job is, among other things, to keep everybody safe, and make sure nothing gets away wounded. We can't do that if we wait for permission. Brown/grizzly bears are almost never "One shot kills". The hunter is instructed to keep shooting until told to stop. I start to shoot as soon as I think the hunter needs help on any game, especially on brown/grizzly bears. I don't ask for permission.

We never bring hunters into the woods when we go in after a wounded bear, for several reasons. When you go into the woods and hear a stick snap, you need to know who made the noise. You know immediately if you yourself makes a noise but if you hear something else make a noise, and the hunter is not in there, your action can be immediate. You don't have to decide, first, who made the noise. Your reaction can be immediate. The saved time can save your life. You don't get hurt and he doesn't get hurt.

A guide I know brought the hunter into the woods with him after a wounded bear, and the hunter got mauled. Hunters seldom have what it takes to take care of a wounded bear in the woods. That's why guys like us are hired. The guide couldn't help because the bear and the hunter were all mixed-up amongst each other.

The hunter stays outside the wood patch, at a good vantage point, to watch its perimeter, shoot the bear, if needed and if the situation presents itself, or tell where the bear goes, afterward, if it tries to sneak out undetected. The hunter is told to never shoot into the patch of woods you are going into.

Since you already own a .416, learn to shoot it, shoot it a lot, you want your shooting of it to become second nature.

Incidentally, I would take the extra power of a large caliber over the flatter trajectory of a lighter, faster round any day. I can learn to shoot a bullet with a two foot drop, as easily as an 18 inch drop, but I cant do anything about the less energy of a lighter weapon. I can load it up to optimum, but I can do that with the heavier weapon too.

These, are only my opinions, take them for what they are worth. I do have behind me the knowledge and experience of some of the finest brown bear/grizzly men in Alaska.

You are developing, but for others, I'd never choose a shot gun, a short magnum, or a .45/70 for a grizzly gun. I'd pick a .300 mag over those (and do in multi-species hunts that include grizzly). Also, I stay away from monolithic bullets, a bonded core, "A" frame bullet out-performs them in terminal ballistics everyday, hands down. That's from over thirty years of bullet recovery.

Nice talking to you.

Have fun, good luck, stay safe.

Would you go into the brush after a wounded bear with another experienced guide or would you leave him with the hunter?

 

[mark knapp]

Would you go into the brush after a wounded bear with another experienced guide or would you leave him with the hunter?

No, most of the things I wrote about still apply. I once went into the woods after a wounded brown bear and left the hunter, an experienced guide and an in-experienced guide outside the woods. I've collected six wounded bears in the woods in my close-to forty year career (so far). It's a time for the utmost. concentration. I want no distractions, and no one else to worry about.

You are certainly welcomed.

 

[mark knapp]

My brother's business partner went with his 2 guides after a wounded bear he had hit the evening before. The guides shot the hunter when the wounded bear charged. He's DEAD. The hunter that is. Lawsuit pending. Happened in Canada.

Thanks for your example. I bet none of them will forget the feeling of that experience. I am forever thankful of my training. (Joe Want, P&T, John Swiss)

 

[s_crockett]

.404 Jeffrey.

 

[PRDATR]

.404 Jeffrey.

Only issue is finding ammo but a good choice with softpoints. It's always for me personally about bullet choice. I don't care if the bullet base is retained if it doesn't expand 100%.

 

[gunner]

A lot of good advice posted above, especially from Mark Knapp. I am far from expert on ballistics, but would point out that in 40 years of guiding alaska coastal bear hunts, from yakutat to cold bay and including Kodiak, I would estimate that well over 90 % of the brown bear guides that I worked with carried the old reliable .375 h&h. For whatever that is worth.

 

[Redlander]

Personally, I carry either a ,458 Win. Mag. or a .375 Win. Mag. for brown bear guiding. Both have been very dependable. I stick to the common rounds so that ammo is easily obtained. The customized rounds like the Ruger magnum can be hard to find.

Try finding any of those rounds in Alaska right now, but the .416 Ruger is on shelves.

To answer the main question, .375 bullets for components will generally be easier to obtain for reloading. As many have said, pick a rifle that is well balanced and that you can shoot well off-hand and from various field positions. You can check my reply to a post earlier this year to see my rifle and bullet that drove lengthwise through an inland grizzly. It’s a Model 70 375 H&H with a D’Arcy Echols fiberglass stock and a fluted, shortened barrel. It’ll feed empty cases almost as well as loaded cases, though loaded cases feed like butter. If I were a guide, I’d have no problem relying on it. However, I do have a Mauser in 7mm magnum that I picked up very cheap and I’ve kept it to maybe have rechambered or rebarreled to .416 Ruger.

If I were a client on a brown bear hunt, I’d like the guide to have a rifle in .35 Whelen, 9.3x62 or bigger cartridge, and I’d want them to be good using it.

P.S., If anyone has any .375 H&H Hornady 250 gr. GMX/CX, I’m on the look. If you’d like to sell send me a PM.