375 or 416 Ruger. Which would you pick & is the 416R the right move from Ruger IYO?

[340Wby]

375 or 416 Ruger. Which would you pick & is the 416R the right move from Ruger IYO?

Just a few questions I thought we could touch on, please add your opinion

How does the 375 Ruger stack up against the new 416 Ruger. The 375 looks close on paper but that's paper I guess.
Do you think Ruger should of gone with the .423 or .458 option instead.
How much difference will the 20" Alaskan differ from the 23" African. How about muzzle-blast.

Which would you pick(why), or just buy both

Thanks

 

[Amigo Will]

I think both are red headed stepchilds of the parent rounds and are much ado about nothing.

 

[Jack49]

I'll take a .375 H&H or .458 Lott any day. Ammo and cases are a lot more available and will be in the future. The Lott (and .458 Win Mag) and the H&H will be around forever. The Rugers only time will tell.

 

[Murphy]

Just a few questions I thought we could touch on, please add your opinion

How does the 375 Ruger stack up against the new 416 Ruger. The 375 looks close on paper but that's paper I guess.
Do you think Ruger should of gone with the .423 or .458 option instead.
How much difference will the 20" Alaskan differ from the 23" African. How about muzzle-blast.

Which would you pick(why), or just buy both

Thanks

First the 375 Ruger, which has no parent case by the way, was designed from the belt dimensions (.532") of the H&H and American magnums. This becomes the body diameter of the Ruger case. What this does is give greater than H&H case capacity in a 30-06 length (approximately) 2.580" case plus bullet nose length gives us about 3.4" AOL. This isn't a Short mag or an Ultra mag, it is I guess a Ruger mag. Some have said that it is a 30 Newton necked up. It is not. The 30 Newton was made from the 8x68 case and dimensions are similar but so are all cartridge dimensions. I've have loaded for all three of these and am sure of the dimensions.

Hornady ( the company who developed the cartridge for Ruger) claims 375 H&H (presumedly from a 24" barrel) performance from a 20" barrel. That performance level (H&H) is a 300 grain bullet at approximately 2550 fps. Hornady loads ammo for the 375 Ruger that will equal that ballistic level from Rugers 20" barreled Alaskan model of the 375 Ruger. In a 23" gun we can reach 2700 fps with the 300 grain bullets in the 375 Ruger. That is a solid 100 to 150 fps above the H&H performance level.

Obviously muzzle blast is greater from a 20" barrel than from a 24" and velocity is also lower with the same load. I don't know how familiar you are with the 375 H&H but most are so I use that as comparison as did Ruger.

I've seen no published ballistic claims for the new 416 Ruger. I surmise the caliber is made by necking up the 375 Ruger case. If that is the case (pun intended) then I have a strong guess about the performance. I have designed four cartridges on the 375 Ruger case two of which are for bullets of .411" and .423" diameter. The .423" (the original diameter of the 404 Jeffery) was meant to duplicate the ballistics of the 404 Jeffery which is, 400 grains at 2150 fps. My caliber will hit 2250 fps with a 23" barrel. This gun is alive and well and living in South Africa and has been used to take cape buffalo and lion. The .411" diameter caliber is yet to be tested but will be 400 grains at about 2200 fps. A 416 Ruger will probably be necked up with no other changes and this would increase the case capacity over my fortys by a couple of grains because I pushed the shoulder back and such a cartridge would give about 2250 fps with a 400 grain .416 bullet from 23" barrel.

The goal of this 416, as with any 416, will be to launch much heavier bullets than a 375 at a more modest velocity. This significantly larger bullet, in diameter and weight, makes it a much more appropriate caliber for heavier, dangerous animals than any 375.


I don't know what you mean "They look close on paper" You may have seen ballistic claims, I haven't, but there should be nothing close in field performance between any forty caliber and any 375 regardless of energy levels. I've taken heavy animals with a half dozen forty caliber rifles and several of the 375's and the forties (411, 416, 404) are truly a step up in power and general field performance. It is said that a 375 is more versatile than a 416 because it can reach out flatter for longer shots. I don't consider this to be true until the range exceeds 200 yards.

Now as for the 458 Ruger, not on that case. There isn't enough shoulder to headspace the cartridge well with new ammo. I say new ammo because after the case is fire formed there will be a nice crisp shoulder but very small. Factory ammo will not have a nice well defined shoulder and it will move at the striker fall.

Most of the dislike for the 375 Ruger comes from those who haven't seen it, shot it, loaded for it or used it in any way. I think it is a good idea. No belt, not too fat like WSM or RUM, though that wasn't a bad thing, and still basically 30-06 in length. They did however push the envelope of these good points to the limit. Further, in order to get maximum capacity from the case two errors were made in its design. First shoulder is too far forward leaving very little neck to grip a 375 or 416 diameter bullet. I worry about that. Secondly they put very little taper in the case. If you notice the long shallow taper of the H&H case you see a big difference between the new Ruger and the old H&H. The H&H was designed that way to allow ease loading and extraction. I can't say that about the Ruger case. The taper and shoulder angle also are not an attribute of a smooth feeder. It needs a bit more taper and a bit more neck, I prefer about a caliber of neck. The 375 Ruger has .315" of neck, I want .375" of neck. My forties have about .400" of neck.

 

[340Wby]

Excellent post! It's exactly what I was after, thanks Murphy

 

[LeonardC]

From the Horn. site for the .416 Ruger: 400 DGS/DGX bullet: fps/en.

Muzzle 2400/5116, 100 yds. 2143/4073, 200 yds 1904/3212

 

[Brian Richardson]

yes...

yes...

A MOST EXCELLENT POST Murphy.

 

[DuckToller]

I woundn't go for either one I am still not convinced there any better than then the old standbys there were intended to replace . In Hodgdons 2009 Annual Reloading Manual the gain with the 375 Ruger over the 375 H&H mag using 24" barrels is 12 fps with a 300 gr bullet and 73 fps using a 270 gr bullet. Not having access to hornadys proprietary powders there's no way for us average reloaders to match Hornadys ballistics.

 

[340Wby]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/ruger375_080807/index.html

 

[tzieli22]

416 Ruger

416 Ruger

Likewise to Murphy, great post. But one thing I do like about the 416 Ruger, or the 375 for that matter is the fact that they come in SS with a synthetic stock and they both are under a grand. I have not purchased the 416 yet because I want to see some more data on it from others who have bought it, but I do like it for the above reasons. Now if someone made the 458 Lott in SS with Synthetic and it could hold up, no questions on what I would want.

Tony

 

[340Wby]

Now if someone made the 458 Lott in SS with Synthetic and it could hold up, no questions on what I would want.

Tony

O-yeah sounds great! 458WM or Lotte whichever ammo takes your fancy on the day

 

[tananaBrian]

Question for someone who has fired the 375 Ruger and a 416 (or similar). Murphy? Is the larger caliber rifle easier to shoot, i.e. has a more 'comfortable' recoil, than the 375 Ruger? I ask because I find my 500 S&W easier to shoot than say a 454 Casull or .460 S&W because the larger heavier bullet moving at a slower speed seems to generate more of a 'push' recoil than a 'smack' recoil ...sorry for my non-technical terms. I guess we could measure bruise diameter if we wanted to get a technical quantitative measure here

Brian

PS: Nearly forgot ...THANKS for the write-up, Murphy. It answer a lot of questions that I've been rolling around in my little head.

 

[DuckToller]

They both will kill anything on the planet it just boils down to whatever trips your trigger . I still don't believe all the hype that Hornady is saying about the 375 Ruger. Go to Wikipedia and do a 375 Ruger search.I'm sure the 416 Ruger is comparable to the 416 Rigby or 416 Taylor and 416 Rem. I may not be Murphy but I did shoot one of John Taylors double rifles once. Good luck on your Choice.

 

[tzieli22]

It's a Stainless Steel thing for me

It's a Stainless Steel thing for me

My only real interest is the Ruger 375 or 416 being stainless. I have a room full of guns from the 06 up to the 45/70 that I am very confident will kill any Alaska game but as we all know, more is better, and bigger is also a nice thing... ... But to be able to get a 416 caliber gun in stainless with a synthetic stock for under a grand is very attractive to me. My only purpose for a gun in this caliber is for one thing and that is too stop or drop a brown bear in his tracks. Hunting up here both in the saltwater areas as well as with our weather and not having to oil your gun several times a day is attractive. I realize though that before stainless that is all we had was blued steel and we had to care for it. Stainless is just a bit easier to maintain. Who knows, the 375 and 416 rugers may just go by in passing...

Choices...

 

[.338 mag.]

all around rifle....

all around rifle....

If I was using one in Alaska and it was my main hunting rilfe it would be the .375. If I was going to Africa on a rerular basis it would be the .416. If I was a brown bear guide it would probably be the .416.

 

[dejzebmoorbn]

375 or 416

375 or 416

I opted for the 375 Ruger for Alaska's purposes, which for me are primarily bear defense. I considered the 416, but the versatility of the 270gr bullets sold me. I love 375 H&H's, but the Hogue overmold and stainless steal are an awesome combination. Watch that forward strap pin, though. It'll bite ya.

 

[grousehunter]

Question for someone who has fired the 375 Ruger and a 416 (or similar). Is the larger caliber rifle easier to shoot, i.e. has a more 'comfortable' recoil, than the 375 Ruger?

I've got the 416 Ruger. I have not shot it much at all, but the recoil I equate to a 12 ga. mag load. You know you have shot something, but it hasn't punched you with a hard jab. Can't compare it to a 375 though as I haven't shot one of those. As someone else said, watch out for the front sling swivel, it'll bite ya.