10mm glock for bear protection?

[marshall]

With a little digging I found these. Perhaps you Alaska 10mm guys are familiar with them. They are hard cast gas checked retail available 230gr 10mm ammo. I suppose this would work as a bear defense round if you could get a few well placed shots off in a hurry.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=158

 

[almostfree]

Posts on this forum and others dispute their published velocity figures, so be advised that it may not be as powerful as it appears. One test I saw found the actual velocities of the 10mm 230 grain hardcast loads to be about the same as .45 ACP +P loads.

I have never personally tested the velocity on any of it to compare it to their published figures, but I have shot a lot of it. I've never had any problems with reliability or accuracy.

 

[akraven]

I have some of those DT 220's and need to get over to a friends house who has a chrono and try it out. The loads I was referring to earlier come from a 10mm specific reloading site.
akraven

 

[roamak]

10mm

10mm

For me its the G20 also. I have packed that pistol much more than any of my others and i feel comfortable taking it anyplace for a backup gun or hiking gun. It has never failed on me and i have shot the hell out of it!
I do have to admit I like the saftey on it. If i get jumped by a bear and he is chewing on my arm, i dont have to think. all i need is a finger on the trigger, and rattle it off!!
Like most others have said, its what you feel comfortable packing. And a cat just may be it for some
greg

 

[ADfields]

I don't think so.
I think if you do some research you will find people are getting 1300-1400 out of 10mm's with 200gr bullets and 6" barrels. Add in a .401 bullet vs .357 and there is an advantage to the 10mm. As for 357 rifle loads you are not going to get the same speed they list for a rifle load out of a pistol.
akraven

Maybe so from a 6" barrel without a cylinder gap, I have not been able to get the published numbers from my 4.75” 10mm as yet. With 357 I have been toping published numbers for 20 years and still getting faster as well as heaver all the time.

The 250 grain load is a Blackhawk revolver load using a off the shelf rifle hard cast rifle bullet, not a rifle load. I have the bullets on the way to give it a try but have not yet, and trust the guy I got this load from when he says he’s pushing it 1185fps with 33,500psi from his 6” blackhawk. The 10mm just does not have enough case volume to keep up, 10mm mag may but I have never laid eyes on one.

 

[grizz106]

I think this fella was talked into a revolver.....practice and learn it well. I carry either a 44 mag or my G20 6"KKM, still think my .30-30 with 180grn hardcast is handy er'. Never in all of my life living in bush Ak. and there is plenty of bears around did I need to kill a bear out of self defense. I would not either "look" for trouble with a handgun of any make. I do however believe this day and age I would opt for my G20 for a more personal carry.....just becoming to be to many questionable characters in the woods these days.

But....."if" by chance my encounters ends up with my G20 and a grizz then I trust 10grns of 800X and Beartooth 200grn WFN will just have to do. I gave up running from anything yrs. back.

Note: the black bear is my only encounter of bluff charges, dashes or close curiosities than all the interior grizz I have come across....you'r lifes walk may be different and plus I don't get into the what "if"s. Maintain you're firearm always and perfect practice makes perfect! make sense?

 

[.338 mag.]

better then nothing...

better then nothing...

If it is all you have then carry it. I thought the ballistics were close to a S&W .41 mag. I would opt for a heavy and deep penetrating bullet. I have been shooting .44 mags for over 30 years and would rather have my wife's little Win. 94 in .44 mag then any hand gun ever made if I had to shoot a charging bear. The reason is I can shoot it so much better then any hand gun I own. This hand gun and bear thing will be discussed as long as we have access to guns.

 

[LuJon]

I mentioned this on the "barnes buster" thread but it probably fits better here. I hope that they expand the new Buster line to include the 10mm. It sure does look interesting and it should go down the throat of a regular g20 barrel with no issues to the proprietary rifling. That would definitely appeal to hog hunters and those wackos who carry the weak little 10mm for bear defense.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Decent?

Decent?

I am new to this site, and dont have much experience with handguns in general, but i find i am drawn more twards automatic's then i am to revolvers, and i was wondering if there was an automatic pistol at least marginally acceptable for bear protection. I'm lookin for something i can take on long hiking trips , i have a mossberg 835 12g that i take with me on any camping trip that dones't invlove long hikes, it is a rather large and unweildy thing to take hiking . I was told recently that a glock 10mm was decent for bear protection, but i thought i would get your insights, thank you for your input .

Knowing that all handguns are merely marginal for bear protection, particularly brown bears. (By definition, you will not be in a position to take careful aim or to reject marginal shots, waiting for a better one). You want a handgun that does not exist.

But there are ones that are marginally adequate.

The 500 S&W throws a slug at nearly 30-06 energy levels. (2900 ft lbs)
The 454 Casull about 1900 ft lbs. The 44 and 41 magnums around 1100 ft lbs. The 10mm about 950 ft lbs if you find a hot load (commercially loaded rounds do not take full advantage of the cartridge's potential) or load it up yourself.

The 10mm is ballistically almost identical to the 41 magnum. But most ammunition you can find to buy for the 10mm is far below the 10mm potential. Over-the-counter 41 Magnum is nearer the cartridge's potential. For the few rounds you will want for bear protection, you will have to get custom loaded ammunition.

When you hot-rod a 10mm in an automatic, you are shortening the gun's life if you shoot a lot of them. Also, most 10mm guns will not feed the heavier bullets (the nose of the bullet sticks out of the case too far to go through the magazine and up the feed ramp). One loading manual I have right next to me here lists the heaviest bullet weight for the 41 mag as 300 grains. The 10mm, 210 grains.

Here's why the heavier bullets are important. At the same power level, that 41 mag 300 grain slug has the same energy, but 20% more momentum than the 10mm with a 210 grain slug. Energy shreds flesh, but it's momentum that breaks bones.

These cartridges have the same diameter bullet, but I would opt for the 41 mag, whatever the action type.

If all I had was a 41 Magnum, I would feel well armed with a cannister of bear spray and the 41 as backup. The 10mm, a bit less so. If headed into grizzly country, I would feel a lot less well armed. Grizzlies call for bigger bullets, both weight and diameter. These days I carry a 7.5" 454 Casull to back up my bear spray.

Lost Sheep

 

[chriso]

A bit more perspective...

A bit more perspective...

No way would I dissagree with any of the points made in this discussion, but would like to add this after 40 years of fishing and hunting and otherwise roaming around here in this vicinity. I've always carried for the day when I wrongly encounter a bear and have to do something about it. I've carried shotguns, short .375 H&H's, 45-70's, .458's, .44 mags, .454's, 50 AE's, .45 winmags... and I've never yet needed one (been able to talk my way out of most encounters thus far, it seems my stories put them to sleep!)

The best bear gun/caliber (IMHO) is the one you have in your hand the day when you need it most. I'd sooner a 10mm in my hand than a .460 in the glovebox, a .500 in the backpack, or a shotgun laying over in the stern of the boat.

If you can discipline yourself to have them bigger guns on your person consistently, then they are certainly the way to go. If you're like me and tend to become complacent over the thought of holstering up or shouldering up a larger handgun or rifle/shotgun... well then, at least if we are willing to make sure and have the smaller gun in our pockets we wont be throwing sticks and stones if and when that day ever materializes...

Just my 2 sentz...

 

[Mike_AK]

Semi-Autos utilize enrgy better spent downrange to cycle the operation of the pistol or rifle

Actually not. In a delayed blowback semi-auto, the bullet is out of the barrel before the slide unlocks and begins traveling rearward.

 

[Last Rites]

Delete: Double Post

 

[Last Rites]

10mm against a black bear... sure. Against a brown bear? Well here's a little laws of physics lesson for you. A brown bear has a thick hide followed by a thick layer of fat, dense muscles and large bones. What is required to penetrate all this dense material is about the equivalent of over 1,000 foot pound of energy from a bullet at MINIMUM. 2,000 ft lbs or more is better of course... which is why your primary hunting rifle is favored.

But you're thinking... holy bear crap batman! When you're facing a pissed off brown bear and it's not in a controlled scientific experiment setting; the fact will never change that "SOMETHING" is better then NOTHING!

Now with that being said... In theory you could kill a bear with a pointy stick if you had to. Even a .22 bullet could theoretically be placed just right through the eye and bounce around in the bears brain pan to scramble it's brains inside his coconut. Doesn't mean you would ever make that type of lottery odds shot. Would a 10mm kill a brown bear though?

I'm sure if you managed to place one through it's eye socket, you'd stand a better chance then a pointy stick.

Would I carry a 10mm vs. a pointy stick?

I think my statistical odds of surviving would be better.

Here's the problem with this question that comes up every day about which gun to carry for bear protection. If you want a trusted side arm to carry that will get the job done... 1.) you need a dependable gun that can do the job, and 2.) you need the skill to use it dependably and accurately.

If you think a 10mm can do the job, it's a simple matter of the laws of physics.

A basic physics text tells us that kinetic energy is the energy of motion. Any object in motion has kinetic energy. Further, the kinetic energy of an object (bullet) is directly proportional to the square of its speed (velocity). For a twofold increase in speed, kinetic energy increases by a factor of four. For a threefold increase in speed, kinetic energy increases by a factor of nine and for a fourfold increase in speed, kinetic energy increases by a factor of 16. The basic formula for kinetic energy is KE equals 1/2 times mass times velocity squared, or KE=1/2 x MV2. Clearly, velocity is a more significant component of kinetic energy than is mass or bullet weight.

So what does this mean for the 10mm?

Here's some results...

10mm DT
Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 200gr Controlled Expansion JHP
Ballistics : 1250fps/ 694ft./ lbs. - Glock 20 / Glock 29 - 1195fps

Caliber : 10mm Bullet : Speer Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 180gr. @ 1300fps / 676ft/lbs- Glock 20 / Glock 29 - 1240fps

Caliber : 10mm Bullet : Speer Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 165gr. @ 1400fps/ 718ft/lbs- Glock 20 / Glock 29 - 1345fps

Caliber : 10mm Bullet : Speer Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 155gr. @ 1475fps / 750ft/lbs- Glock 20 / Glock 29 - 1405fps

Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point.
Ballistics : 1600fps / 767 ft.lbs. - Glock 20

A Glock 20 10mm semi auto is probably one of the better choices of guns to shoulder carry, then a heavier wheel gun, that IMO, would just smack a novice shooter panic stricken by the sight of an ambushing bear, right in his or her own face; or worse... fly right out of their hand!

There you have it. My two cents for a buck nineteen. Carry a Glock 20 in a shoulder rig for 2 primary reasons. IMO it's an extension of my hand that I can trust without getting into a brand name loyalty debate about Glocks... I will simply assume most everyone agrees they are dependable semi autos. And secondly... it's better to have something better then nothing. And when it comes to this "something" ...a 10mm Glock 20 will do the job in the hands of an experienced and well prepared marksman suddenly caught off guard by an ambushing brown bear.

At least you have a chance right? You can pull out your 10 and fire a full 15 round clip into a rampaging bear more dependably then most folks could empty their 50 cal desert eagles or wheel guns. There's some experts that would prove me wrong... but then again you're not Chuck Norris right? You can't walk on water, and you definitely would prefer a 10mm to nothing?

 

[danattherock]

Would I carry a 10mm vs. a pointy stick?

Love that part

Welcome. Post and post often.


-Dan

 

[2PawsRiver]

I think my favorite "Pistol for Bear" thread, and there are many, has to be the one with the poll.

 

[akrstabout]

When I carry my glock, all the time in the woods, I have Double Tap's hardcast in the gun. All I shoot currently. Gonna give the 200gr XTP a shot here soon. Hard to beat 230gr with a very wide meplat for caliber. In a defensive situation, you are not going to want the lighter HP's!! Stick with the 200gr XTP or any of the two hardcasts.

 

[ADfields]

10mm DT
Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 200gr Controlled Expansion JHP
Ballistics : 1250fps/ 694ft./ lbs. - Glock 20 / Glock 29 - 1195fps

Caliber : 10mm Bullet : Speer Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 180gr. @ 1300fps / 676ft/lbs- Glock 20 / Glock 29 - 1240fps

Caliber : 10mm Bullet : Speer Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 165gr. @ 1400fps/ 718ft/lbs- Glock 20 / Glock 29 - 1345fps

Caliber : 10mm Bullet : Speer Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 155gr. @ 1475fps / 750ft/lbs- Glock 20 / Glock 29 - 1405fps

Caliber : 10mm Bullet : 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point.
Ballistics : 1600fps / 767 ft.lbs. - Glock 20

Welcome to the forum.

I agree 10mm is better than a sharp stick and I often pack one myself in the woods. I call it marginal for black bear and moose but good enough all things considered. However I believe it to be quite inadequate for a griz/brown bear stopping round and when in bear country during summer I pack a S&W 460V that I have no doubt will shut down a brown’s central nervous system in one shot.

Some of your other points are a bit off the mark in my view though.

Big revolver hitting the shooter in the head or flying from their hand? It just doesn’t happen like that in the real world unless the handgun is chambered in 700NE. My 9 year old nice has shot my 460 S&W Mag many times, her head and my gun remain unscratched. She is a force with a 44mag Blackhawk. Dose the 454/460/500 and so on have recoil, well sure . . . but don’t buy into the urban legends that it’s unmanageable.

Jerry Miculek would be hard presses to get 3 or 4 rounds into a charging bear in the time it takes one to be on you, the only way anyone empties a mag is if the first couple of rounds worked and your shooting a dead or running away bear.

You need to dump that hollow point ammo or save it for two legged vermin. You don’t want expansion for a light round on a big critter because it will not penetrate enough to get to anything important. For woods carry be it brown, black, or even a mad moose you may very well be caught dead shooting JHPs, get yourself some good hard cast for your Glock.

 

[arizonaguide]

You need to dump that hollow point ammo or save it for two legged vermin. You don’t want expansion for a light round on a big critter because it will not penetrate enough to get to anything important. For woods carry be it brown, black, or even a mad moose you may very well be caught dead shooting JHPs, get yourself some good hard cast for your Glock.

Repeated again, for emphasis!

 

[AlaskaHippie]

ADFields & ArizonaGuide have some excellent points.

I might also add that...

You can pull out your 10 and fire a full 15 round clip into a rampaging bear...

If you have the time to dump all 15, then that "rampaging" bear is orchestrating a charge that is on par with an advancing glacier.....

 

[MagLvr]

Poor Cats!!! So Sad!!!

Poor Cats!!! So Sad!!!

It always bothers me when people talk about killing cats, then never bother to take the time to mention how tasty they are, or perhaps share a favorite recipe! I don't think that is too much to ask.
After all, if we are going to kill something, let's not let it go to waste
For those wondering......yes, I have, and YES they are delicious!!!

Meeeeeeeoowwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!