What would you do??

[Snyd]

Should we post "new scenarios" under this thread or start a new one?

Start a new one of you like. I figure there are a lot of folks out there who have training and/or first hand experience being either the rescuer, the injured or both. Mr Pid has had experience at both. We can all learn from each other. I have experience at both to a degee but never have been the severely injured in a backcountry situation. I don't know what it's like to experience severe pain while being lumpity bumped out of the woods via foot, atv, boat, cub or whatever. Having rx pain killers could help the injured considerably. I do however have experience and training at outdoor rescues and know what it's like to arrive on scene as a rescurer only to find out it's your friend who has been laying in the snow for 45 minutes in and out of conciousness while bleeding profusely from a nasty gash on the head. Training really does kick in at times like that.

Lets keep the dialog going. Real life experiences shared in good taste, protecting identities where appropriate, etc. Hopefully we can all learn something.

[BucknRut]

Great thread! What's next?

Please Mr. Pid, enough already...
Yes, communication devices be it sat phones, elt's, cell phones, etc. are great but they don't stop the bleeding...

Could not have been said better!

I'm not a doctor, a nurse, a medic or an ex-marine, but I am an Eagle Scout and I try my best to be prepared for any given situation. I think little scenarios like the one Perry brought up here is a valuable resource and we should continue these exercises by bringing up a new example after one has been exhausted. If we take the time to look, read, reflect and share, we can all learn and become better prepared for an emergency. Ignorance can be a killer, I think it would be beneficial for everyone to share their thought process (right or wrong) and if someone can give some constructive criticism, like Snyd did about the femoral artery...well, we just might save some lives here.

Should we post "new scenarios" under this thread or start a new one?

[AkBubba]

Well said

What's more important than a sat phone? Your hunting partner. Make sure you trust him with your life. You may have to.

I agree 100%....

[Mr. Pid]

You're right. I've been on a couple of those trips. One was a friend who had internal injuries. There was nothing to do but keep him warm. The other was me. Badly broken leg. I know what it feels like to be attended to by guys with average first aid skills, to be carried out of the woods, and to be put into an airplane for a ride to the hospital. My advice? Carry drugs. Pain killers. That's what the injured guy will want.

What's more important than a sat phone? Your hunting partner. Make sure you trust him with your life. You may have to.

[Snyd]

Besides, in the original question we're supposed to be chasing a wounded animal. I don't chase wounded animals on wheelers. I'd locate the animal, make sure it was dead, probably gut it, and then think about getting the wheeler.

Please Mr. Pid, enough already...
Yes, communication devices be it sat phones, elt's, cell phones, etc. are great but they don't stop the bleeding.

This thread has nothing to do with driving an atv, the animal, etc. Pick any potential accident scene you can think of. Maybe it was someone else and you happened to show up, whatever.
The point is that if one hunts in Alaska you may find yourself in a situation where your partner or someone else is severly injured with a head/brain injury or a femur fracture. You may have to rely on a few items you have at your disposal. The decisions you make can save your friends life or not. You can make a call on your sat phone, then sit and wait and watch your friend die as he bleeds out internally because his femoral artery is having a hole ground in it becuase the quads are going into spasms becuse you did not know how to make and apply a traction splint. Or, you could make a traction splint in about ten minutes and save his life, if you know how. In this type ofsituation knowledge is power. A sat phone call may just be a call for body recovery. The choice could be yours.

[Mr. Pid]

I like wheelers under me. I don't like the idea of a 6 wheeler on top of me. I've tried it with snowmachines....it hurts. Especially where the sat phone gets smashed into your ribs.

Besides, in the original question we're supposed to be chasing a wounded animal. I don't chase wounded animals on wheelers. I'd locate the animal, make sure it was dead, probably gut it, and then think about getting the wheeler.

[GreginAlaska]

"...
Why would you ride your wheelers down a steep grade before walking it?

hmm...I think some people buy wheelers to keep from walking up and down hills.

[GreginAlaska]

"...
Also, I was talking to a friend a while back and he said something that makes me think. He said by taking a sat phone or cell phone in the field, this can make you take bigger chances by thinking you will have an out.

What say you guys?

Maybe, but that is pretty much what the British said about parachutes for fighter pilots during WW1, that's why the allies didn't us them. The guys in the derigibles got them though.

[AkBubba]

I'd feel really smart for bringing my satellite phone and calling RCC, which is programmed into the speed dial. I know, sat phones are spendy. What's your life worth? My number-dialing skills are better than my first aid skills, and my first aid skills are better than most.

Why would you ride your wheelers down a steep grade before walking it?

Good to have a sat phone. I know we use them at work most of the time. And I've seen most of them fail. Good to have some skills just in case.

Also, I was talking to a friend a while back and he said something that makes me think. He said by taking a sat phone or cell phone in the field, this can make you take bigger chances by thinking you will have an out.

What say you guys?

[Snyd]

I agree. I was just messing around and thought up a scenario off the top of my head just to get things rolling. Think up another situation if you would like. Not all typical hunters and "weekend warriors" have sat phones and we all make stupid decisions at times. It's usually the small seemingly insignificant ones that end up getting us in trouble.

If one has never considered having to deal with the types of injuries I described above then one could potentialy watch his friend die if you were in this type of situation. A little knowledge, some conversation, some role playing and even lurking around a forum like this just might help someone save someones life. If you notice, two of the individuals who responded did not consider the possibility of a femur fracture (or at least didn't indicate it). They may or may not be aware of the fact that a femur fracture is a life threatening injury. But, if you know how to recognize it and make a traction splint you can save your buddies life. It would be a good thing to do after you call for help on the a sat phone.

Just trying to provide a forum for discussing things like this and raise awareness.

Perry

[Mr. Pid]

I'd feel really smart for bringing my satellite phone and calling RCC, which is programmed into the speed dial. I know, sat phones are spendy. What's your life worth? My number-dialing skills are better than my first aid skills, and my first aid skills are better than most.

Why would you ride your wheelers down a steep grade before walking it?

[Snyd]

Looks like you nailed it. Until I had some forml training I did not realize that a femur fracture can be fatal. It can also be treated in the field fairly effectivly with a traction splint giving one a chance to survive. In this scenario there is sign of a possible brain inury (impared level of responsiveness- he doesn't know what happened or where he is). Nothing we can do to treat it. He needs to get out of there asap. Here is what I was getting at:

use alder branches, rope and duct tape to make a traction splint.
use a game bag rolled up to improvise a c-collar
control bleeding on head using first aid kit or piece of game bag or whatever
mark way point on gps
go to camp, get sleeping bag, tarp, etc. go back to him put something under him and cover him up good (treating for shock and hypothermia)
go for help. stop every so often try and call on cell phone for rescue helicopter

I'ts easy to sit here and talk about this but it's totally different in real life. But, it's good to talk about scenarios, it just may help if you find yourslfe in a situation like this someday. Leaving your buddy with a broken femur without a traction splint can be fatal. Splinting it can give him a chance.

[AkBubba]

Man Down

Based on the initial assessment, I would attempt to remove the machine and while trying to do no harm to the C-Spine, cut the pant legs off around the apparent fracture and check the femoral area. Based on the information he probably has an open femur fracture which can be fatal. If possible, stop the bleeding and apply a traction splint made from the nearby alders and using rope, tape a stick to use for the tension, treat for shock by repositioning him on the hill and cover him with what ever clothing we have on hand. If the femoral artery is what is bleeding, he may not survive long, being a good friend I would attempt to stop this bleeding with my forceps that I keep in my FA kit in my pack.

Make him comfortable, leave water and food and head for help

And do no harm

Hope I passed

[Snyd]

One more clue. A Femur Fra_______ is a life threatening injury. In this case it sounds like an open/compund Femur Fra_____. You need to make a Tr_______ Sp_______ out of some alder branches, duct tape and rope and apply tr______. Or he will bleed to death.

[Blink]

First if he owed me money I would check his wallet...lol

Seriously, if this scenario happened, FIrst I would try to make an initial assesment. I know his leg is screwed and depending on the bleeding, I would try to pay more attention to his melon and his chest. If the machine ended up on his chest I would be worried about internal injuries. I'd try and find a way to immobilize his neck (actually after initial, it would be good to do this first) and pay attention to his breathing and constantly asking him simple questions to see if he can answer them. constantly taking note of his vitals for any change.

As for the leg, thats a tough one. when I took my EMT course about a dozen years ago, one instructor said to set it and and splint it, another said to splint it in place. In this situation I would probably set it. just because of the time it would probably take to get rescuers on scene.

Tough to say. hope it never happens