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Difference Between an Air Charter and a Transporter

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  • #61
    Originally posted by tsunami View Post
    Agreed with all but especially with the concept that most clients don't understand that all airplane rides are not equal.

    I'm surprised NPS/USFW land managers continue the practice of regularly authorizing guides to use aircraft on federal lands without requiring all aircraft operations related to commercial use of federal lands to also abide by the commercial (part 135) regulations.

    Federal land managers could (maybe should?) enlighten 'clients' about who's been issued a commercial use permit and whether the operator is or is not conducting it's aircraft operations under Federal commercial flying standards?
    Because part 135 is not commercial operations. Part 135 regulates commuter and on-demand operations. There are plenty of commercial part 91 operations. Air tours, survey, banner towing, giving instruction, ferry flying, fire fighting etc. There's actually a list in Part 119.1e.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by tsunami View Post
      Guides can ONLY transport GUIDED clients. Guides are NOT authorized by the state to transport clients who are only "outfitted". Right?
      You are wrong a guide can sell unguided drop off hunts under part 91. Just like a fishing lodge can fly clients around every day under part 91. The key is you are not charging for the flight , you are charging for a self guided hunt and the flying is incidental to the hunt. Guides are not just guides but outfitters also, They can outfit a self guided hunt by supplying any or all gear, the only catch is it must be done in their guide use area. I do self guided hunts all the time as a guide under part 91. The only time I have to be a 135 operator is if I transport out of my guide use area.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by cubdriver55 View Post
        You are wrong a guide can sell unguided drop off hunts under part 91.
        Actually just about any person can "sell" an unguided hunt.

        Selling hunts is not the exclusive domain of "guide-outfitters".

        Originally posted by cubdriver55 View Post
        Just like a fishing lodge can fly clients around every day under part 91.
        DUGH....unguided drop off hunts are not 'just like a fishing lodge'....unguided hunters are flown in, dropped off and picked up days later not flown back to the lodge every night....AND fishing lodges are providing guide services....unlike hunting guides dropping off unguided hunters.

        "drop off" aircraft operations REQUIRE the aircraft operator to conduct those type of flight operations under the Part 135 rules...end of story

        Originally posted by cubdriver55 View Post
        The key is you are not charging for the flight , you are charging for a self guided hunt and the flying is incidental to the hunt.
        Actually dude the 'key' is providing "guide service' and overnight accommodations.

        AND how's the pilot getting paid anyway? How's the airplane time being compensated for?....just giving some person a tent and a camp (outfitting)....and charging them $2k (or whatever) for the tent.....omg your so off the mark on this it's not even funny anymore.



        Originally posted by cubdriver55 View Post
        I do self guided hunts all the time as a guide under part 91. The only time I have to be a 135 operator is if I transport out of my guide use area.
        You should think about taking the time to write the FAA legal department and ask them for an opinion on your concept of drop off hunts in a guide use area being part 91 before you find out the hard way that you are the one wrong here.

        There is NOTHING...NOTHING...about having a "guide use area" registration and a guide-outfitter's occupational license that somehow authorizes a guide with an airplane to provide drop off hunts under Part 91 rules.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by z987k View Post
          Because part 135 is not commercial operations. Part 135 regulates commuter and on-demand operations. There are plenty of commercial part 91 operations. Air tours, survey, banner towing, giving instruction, ferry flying, fire fighting etc. There's actually a list in Part 119.1e.
          Sure I'm familiar with list and I agree with you that there are some "commercial" part 91 operations authorized and Part 135 rules define commuter and on-demand aircraft operations.

          But, where in part 91 would we find evidence that state licensed guide-outfitters can provide drop off hunts (but only in state regulated guide use areas) under part 91 rules?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by tsunami View Post
            Sure I'm familiar with list and I agree with you that there are some "commercial" part 91 operations authorized and Part 135 rules define commuter and on-demand aircraft operations.

            But, where in part 91 would we find evidence that state licensed guide-outfitters can provide drop off hunts (but only in state regulated guide use areas) under part 91 rules?
            Nowhere. Part 91 has nothing about what is and isn't commercial operations. That's contained in 119, 135 and 121(and a couple others that are less common).
            However, the FAA has defined common carriage, and there's a bunch of letters from their lawyers explaining it. But the gist is, for it to fall under 91, it HAS to be incidental to the business. The Feds could care less about Alaskan hunting rules. If you are selling a seat on an airplane, it's not 91. The only way guiding can be 91 is if the transportation is incidental to the guiding. If you just drop off hunters, it's 100% 135.

            What Cubdriver wrote is an illegal charter operation. And with so many people that do it, it can be really hard for legitimate businesses, because more safety costs money.

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