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What do you think? can a slower bullet knock down better?

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  • rbuck351
    replied
    Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to say you shouldn't watch cowboy movies. As a matter of fact, it might be time better spent than some of the discussions that drag on for days on this forum. ( Ruger vs S&W) for instance. In case no one has said it, Thanks Snyd. Some of the movie shots where it jerks someone off their feet and slams them out through the saloon wall are a bit more than I can stand. As someone said, hang a sand bag (one that weighs like a moose) from a rope, shoot it and see if anything happens. That should give you a fair idea of what the energy dump into something the size of a moose really does. The effect on the CNS is a whole nother story and is highly unpredictable.

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  • rbuck351
    replied
    Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to say you shouldn't watch cowboy movies. As a matter of fact, it might be time better spent than some of the discussions that drag on for days on this forum. ( Ruger vs S&W) for instance. In case no one has said it, Thanks Snyd. Some of the movie shots where it jerks someone off their feet and slams them out through the saloon wall are a bit more than I can stand. As someone said, hang a sand bag (one that weighs like a moose) from a rope, shoot it and see if anything happens. That should give you a fair idea of what the energy dump into something the size of a moose really does. The effect on the CNS is a whole nother story and is highly unpredictable.

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  • Smitty of the North
    replied
    Originally posted by rbuck351 View Post
    If you really want to see the knock down effect of a bullet just shoot your moose again after it is dead and laying on the ground. If you think it is actually going to do more than slightly wiggle the body you've been watching too many cowboy movies. The bullet has very little "Knock Down Power" but causes the cns to shut off signals to the legs and other support system of the moose causing it to fall down. Dumping a ton of energy instantly into a two pound PD will certainly spread parts around but that same energy dumped into nearly a ton of moose just won't have a lot of reaction caused by the bullets energy.
    I agree, except that I COULDN'T POSSIBLEY watch too many cowboy movies. There aren't enough out there, and they don't hardly mak'em anymore.

    I dont' know where such a preposterous idea came from. Look at all the folks like "Smokey", who CLEARLY doesn't watch them enuff.

    Smitty of the North

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  • chico99645
    replied
    If you can launch a cinder block at 30 MPH, it will knock just about anything down. Have you ever watched the guys in PA with the Pumpkin Chunkers? Ever see the results of one shooting a frozen turkey? Pretty devastating stuff to say the least. As it was said though, you can shoot 100 animals with the same gun and bullet, and you will get different effects. I know when I hunt with my bow, I'd rather shoot a fat, heavy arrow anyday over a light fast arrow.

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  • tjen
    replied
    Arrows kill with very little tramma but with extreme blood pressure loss and I think the fastest bullet kills that are not nervse sytem hits are like wise (DRT) just the same. Its a balancing act to get a bullet to make a wound that premits extreme blood pressure lose with out making too much tramma (bruising) that inhibits DRT.

    Too much velocity can and ofton produces hydrstatic shock that if does not bring about a DRT produces tons of bruising. The best alround bullet wounds Have complete penitration with large dimeter wounds that produces reped loss of blood pressure.

    In short its the wound the bullet prduced not which cartridge it was shot from or even what velocity. There are so many veriablesbut the ortopcy should show why why a 338fed out did a 340 in that one instance.

    My thinking is velocity is to get the needed trajectroy for the needed bullet dia and weight to get 100% penitration and required expantion on the game hunted. KE is what ever it ends up being nothing more nothing less.

    In my thinking the 338fed is better for shots less than 250 yrads even in on game performance if the right bullet performance acheived.

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  • MontanaRifleman
    replied
    Originally posted by Stihl_header View Post
    I remember seeing a Mythbusters show where they tested cowboys flying backwards through a window after being shot with a 12 gague. their conclusions were that even a 10 gage at point blank does not impart the energy required to throw a person backwards like a prarie dog.
    Maybe you're referring to this... This is Part II, revisiting and using a slightly different approach.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCzD5uhSViY

    Post #29

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  • Stihl_header
    replied
    I remember seeing a Mythbusters show where they tested cowboys flying backwards through a window after being shot with a 12 gague. their conclusions were that even a 10 gage at point blank does not impart the energy required to throw a person backwards like a prarie dog.

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  • rbuck351
    replied
    If you really want to see the knock down effect of a bullet just shoot your moose again after it is dead and laying on the ground. If you think it is actually going to do more than slightly wiggle the body you've been watching too many cowboy movies. The bullet has very little "Knock Down Power" but causes the cns to shut off signals to the legs and other support system of the moose causing it to fall down. Dumping a ton of energy instantly into a two pound PD will certainly spread parts around but that same energy dumped into nearly a ton of moose just won't have a lot of reaction caused by the bullets energy.

    Leave a comment:


  • LuJon
    replied
    Originally posted by Sir View Post
    There are videos of this happening over in the sand pit. People blow up like a ground squirrel when hit by a .50. They all seem to have dandruff, they find their Head and Shoulders splattered all over the place! "yuck"

    We made a 3/8 inch plate shooting tree once. Shot it all day with pistols, large and small. Shot it with a .45-70 and it busted the welds and sent it flying bent like a taco. We were pretty close though. Pretty neat!
    Not to be a nay-sayer but those supposed vids of snipers whacking taliban with a 50 are actually taken from a rock chuck hunting video.

    Most small arms related deaths in the AOR are from loss of blood. Loss of blood comes from holes and internal damage. Holes also allow air into the chest cavity so the lungs collapse which ends breathing. Loss of blood and lack of breathing are not consistent with life. I would prefer the bullet that will hold together and expand as much as possible while still exiting with reasonable consistency.

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  • Smitty of the North
    replied
    Originally posted by Dan in Alaska View Post
    The explosive effect is caused by the build up of pressure inside the water jug. When the bullet hits the water jug, it deforms the container before penetrating it. The deformed container has less volume than the regular, non-deformed container. When you decrease the volume, you increase the pressure, and since water does not compress - the spike in pressure ruptures the container.
    Thank You, Dan in Alaska.

    Smitty of the North

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  • Dan in Alaska
    replied
    Originally posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    When that little PD does it's flippity flop, I think it's an explosive effect, like you see, when you shoot a jug of water. Which, I'm supposing to be caused by what I'm calling, the vacuum wave behind the bullet.
    The explosive effect is caused by the build up of pressure inside the water jug. When the bullet hits the water jug, it deforms the container before penetrating it. The deformed container has less volume than the regular, non-deformed container. When you decrease the volume, you increase the pressure, and since water does not compress - the spike in pressure ruptures the container.

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  • Dan in Alaska
    replied
    Originally posted by Smokey View Post
    I don't think a bullet has any energy until it contacts something and then it only delivers said energy at a rate determined by the material it impacts.
    Kinetic energy is associated with objects in motion, not contact with other objects. If the bullet is moving, is has velocity, so it MUST have energy. It is a mathematical certainty, since there are no physical objects that do not have mass.

    Paul gave us the formulas:
    Originally posted by Paul H View Post
    mass x velocity = momentum
    mass x velocity x velocity = kinetic energy


    Originally posted by Smokey View Post
    Stand up a single sheet of paper and bullet zips through stand up a book of paper and bullet knocks it over
    Inertia is an object's resistance to changes in velocity, and it is proportional to the object's mass. A book has more mass than a piece of paper, so it has more inertia......and it is has more effect on the bullet's velocity. Since a piece of paper has very little mass, it has very little effect on the bullet's velocity.

    Originally posted by Smokey View Post
    Now, I can understand it also as recoil to the shooter - a big thumper like a 458 bullet pokin along at 2400fps will set me back much harder than a 223 50 grain bullet at 3000fps.
    You've heard the expression, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" (Newton's 3rd Law of Motion)? Recoil is a matter of momentum, not energy. The momentum of the bullet and burning power moving forward is equal to the momentum of the rifle moving rearward. The momentum of for each "action" is the same.

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  • Sir
    replied
    Originally posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    I think some of you guys have been watching too many Dirty Harry movies. Bullets are just waaay too small to knock over anything much bigger than a prairie dog. Especially since flesh absorbs the momentum and energy of a bullet. Hitting a steel plate that does not give and knocking it back an inch or two is a whole lot different than hitting a piece of meat.

    What do you think a 50 BMG would to to a human? ...much smaller than a moose. Iff'n ya like, I can probably dig up the myth busters video on it. It's all physics and math.
    There are videos of this happening over in the sand pit. People blow up like a ground squirrel when hit by a .50. They all seem to have dandruff, they find their Head and Shoulders splattered all over the place! "yuck"

    We made a 3/8 inch plate shooting tree once. Shot it all day with pistols, large and small. Shot it with a .45-70 and it busted the welds and sent it flying bent like a taco. We were pretty close though. Pretty neat!

    Leave a comment:


  • Smitty of the North
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowwolfe View Post
    Kind of makes a person think as to why John "Pondoro" Taylor developed his knock down scale.
    Maybe he needed something that would explain all the game he wounded. ('Da goon mus notta ben beeg nuff.")

    Smitty of the North

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  • Smitty of the North
    replied
    Originally posted by The Kid View Post
    I read an interesting article the other day about the so called "energy transfer". It had to do with the way of thinking where guys want a bullet to stay inside an animal to "dump" all it's energy and not waste it on the hillside as some have suggested happens with pass through shots. The writer shot Barnes TSX bullets from a 300RUM and a 30-06 through a ballistic gel block at 100yds. Both cartridges were loaded with 168gr bullets if I remember right and he set a chronograph behind the blocks to measure the speed of the bullets after exit and thereby calculate remaining energy. I think he was shooting through about 14 inches of gel if memory serves. Both bullets had remaining energy roughly equal to a 25ACP after exiting the "animal".

    I haven't been a beleiver in the energy thing for a long while now and this article further reinforced my beliefs. Shoot a hole through both sides with a good bullet and start butchering. I rarely give "knockdown" or energy or anything else any thought or crediblity when shooting big game. I use good bullets and put holes in important parts of the body, if they don't fall over I merely shoot them some more.
    Jolly good show.

    Smitty of the North

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