What do you think? can a slower bullet knock down better?

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  • #16
    I agree with jim in that, it is it is HOW the energy is expended, that matters, not how much.

    Expansion always works against penetration, and for that reason alone, over-expansion is to be avoided.

    I prefer to err on the side of penetration, because that is essential.

    I know that there are better constructed boolits nowadays, but I still use heavy for caliber bullets, to help insure they will penetrate enough. For example, a 140 grain bullet in a 280 Rem, may work fine on a Caribou, but what if you need to stop a bear?

    I'm of the opinion that there is shock, associated with velocity, if the velocity is high enough, and it may be due to the vaccum wave behind the bullet that's larger than the bullet's diameter.

    Never having been shot, I can only speculate.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by jim in anchorage View Post
      This reminds me of the old Jack O'Connor-Elmer Keith fast light bullet vs big slow bullet debates.
      No question a bullet that expands and stays inside the animal is transferring more energy to the target than one that passes though and goes bouncing off into the countryside.The big question is HOW did it transfer that energy-did it shatter into a thousand ineffective pieces and not penetrate or did it shed enough energy though violent frontal expansion to hydro shock the vitals yet retain enough mass to reach the off hide?

      I think, with the jacketed bullets available in the 40s' 50s' and 60's I would have sided with Keith. But with todays partition, bonded bullets we get the best of both worlds-violent expansion and penetration

      As far as animals being "knocked off their feet" I don't believe it's energy transfer from the bullet-I would suspect its a nervous system reaction to the sudden pain, like your arm shooting over your head when you unexpectedly touch a hot stove burner.
      Jim, just for the sake of friendly what if's, I have sent some prairie dogs doing back flips many times - I think Knocked off their feet" would readily apply and they left their feet before they had any sensation from what was left of their nervous systems. Problem I see is most animals of any size, and with 4 legs to brace themselves, can withstand a pretty healthy blow so we run out of enough power to knock em over quite fast with hand held guns....
      I totally agree with your energy transfer inputs...
      When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

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      • #18
        Shooting animals behind the shoulder is a hold-over from the days of Black-Powder. If it is Meat for the freezer, and you want it dead in a mega-second, shoot it in the brain. Period.

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        • #19
          Adding to my post #16, and in answer to the OP's question.... "can a slower bullet knock down better?"

          I can believe that sometimes a slower bullet can be a more reliable killer, if over expansion is an issue, because velocity aids expansion, and again, expansion works against penetration.

          I've heard the therory that a high SD bullet, at moderate velocity gives the most reliable terminal performance, and that makes sense to me.

          Smitty of the North
          Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
          Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
          You can't out-give God.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AGL4now View Post
            Shooting animals behind the shoulder is a hold-over from the days of Black-Powder. If it is Meat for the freezer, and you want it dead in a mega-second, shoot it in the brain. Period.
            I think it's more of a practical consideration.

            A head shot is a smaller target, and more difficult to hit, from field shooting positions, at longer ranges. Ya gotta figure the odds.

            If the distance is right for you, and you've got a good steady rest, to shoot from, a head shot might make some sense.

            Smitty of the North
            Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
            Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
            You can't out-give God.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Smokey View Post
              Jim, just for the sake of friendly what if's, I have sent some prairie dogs doing back flips many times - I think Knocked off their feet" would readily apply and they left their feet before they had any sensation from what was left of their nervous systems. Problem I see is most animals of any size, and with 4 legs to brace themselves, can withstand a pretty healthy blow so we run out of enough power to knock em over quite fast with hand held guns....
              I totally agree with your energy transfer inputs...
              Well all bets are off with a prairie dog. Thats probably the rough equivalent of shooting a moose with a 16 inch naval gun

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              • #22
                Well, Smokey, you got me thinkin:

                Spose there is "resistance", like in a PD?

                How hard can a bullet whose weight is measured in grains, push a PD, whose weight is measured in pounds?

                When that little PD does it's flippity flop, I think it's an explosive effect, like you see, when you shoot a jug of water. Which, I'm supposing to be caused by what I'm calling, the vacuum wave behind the bullet.

                It doesn't make sense to me, that the PD, or any other kinda animal, is actually PUSHED back'ards by that leetle tiny bullet.

                I'm not saying that resistance isn't ever a factor, in terminal performance. Bullets knock down Silhouettes, but the resistance is MUCH greater, and bullets heavier, than most varmint bullets.

                I just don't think "Knock Down", in the case of shooting an animal, is really "Knocking" it down, if that makes any sense.

                Smitty of the North
                Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
                Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
                You can't out-give God.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by t-storm View Post
                  Was my coffee to strong?
                  I'm going with that. Energy of a bullet is a function of weight of the bullet and velocity of the bullet. Transfer of energy from a bullet to an animal is a function of surface area of the bullet, expansion of the bullet, and weather the bullet leaves the animal taking some of its energy with it or stops in the animal leaving all its energy with the animal. I'm guessing the more energy a bullet has and then transfers to an animal the more "knock down potential" that bullet has. Regardless of a bullet/cartridge combo's "knock down potential" it's all about where you shoot it. Aside from fun philosophical debate I think forget about it and just keep wacking moose in the heart with your .340 Weatherby!

                  Brett

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                  • #24
                    I read an interesting article the other day about the so called "energy transfer". It had to do with the way of thinking where guys want a bullet to stay inside an animal to "dump" all it's energy and not waste it on the hillside as some have suggested happens with pass through shots. The writer shot Barnes TSX bullets from a 300RUM and a 30-06 through a ballistic gel block at 100yds. Both cartridges were loaded with 168gr bullets if I remember right and he set a chronograph behind the blocks to measure the speed of the bullets after exit and thereby calculate remaining energy. I think he was shooting through about 14 inches of gel if memory serves. Both bullets had remaining energy roughly equal to a 25ACP after exiting the "animal".

                    I haven't been a beleiver in the energy thing for a long while now and this article further reinforced my beliefs. Shoot a hole through both sides with a good bullet and start butchering. I rarely give "knockdown" or energy or anything else any thought or crediblity when shooting big game. I use good bullets and put holes in important parts of the body, if they don't fall over I merely shoot them some more.

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                    • #25
                      I think some of you guys have been watching too many Dirty Harry movies. Bullets are just waaay too small to knock over anything much bigger than a prairie dog. Especially since flesh absorbs the momentum and energy of a bullet. Hitting a steel plate that does not give and knocking it back an inch or two is a whole lot different than hitting a piece of meat.

                      What do you think a 50 BMG would to to a human? ...much smaller than a moose. Iff'n ya like, I can probably dig up the myth busters video on it. It's all physics and math.
                      "You will never know how much it cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you make good use of it."
                      ~ John Quincy Adams

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by The Kid View Post
                        Shoot a hole through both sides with a good bullet and start butchering......I use good bullets and put holes in important parts of the body, if they don't fall over I merely shoot them some more.
                        I couldn't possibly agree anymore with something than I do that statement!

                        Brett

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                        • #27
                          Kind of makes a person think as to why John "Pondoro" Taylor developed his knock down scale.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by jim in anchorage View Post
                            Well all bets are off with a prairie dog. Thats probably the rough equivalent of shooting a moose with a 16 inch naval gun
                            In my opinion Jim's got it wright. For every action there is a reaction. I have no idea how much energy it takes to knock a moose over but I'd say it's a lot more than a prairie dog. If a bullet was able to knock something of this size off its feet I would think the recoil would have to be equal to that force and the bullet would have to be of such a size as to broadcast that energy over quite a large surface area of the animal. Now I'm no physicist but I did watch that episode of Mythbusters! The rest is a matter of bullet construction which is why prairie dogs seem to vaporize. The bullet that strikes them is rather large in comparrison to their body weight and that same bullet is designed to explode on impact like a bomb. So if you hit a moose with a 16in round that exploded on impact I believe you would get the same results. Just a thought!

                            John
                            :cool: Life is too important to be taken seriously. :cool:

                            Chinese proverb

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                            • #29
                              For all you Dirty Harry fans... enjoy

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCzD5uhSViY
                              "You will never know how much it cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you make good use of it."
                              ~ John Quincy Adams

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Snowwolfe View Post
                                Kind of makes a person think as to why John "Pondoro" Taylor developed his knock down scale.
                                It gave him something to write about!

                                Brett

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