Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Medium bore stopper

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    I think a +400gr hard cast from a 45-70 is something that will and has gone north to south and then some on many of Africa's dangous game like rino. It has been choose by PH's for a Stopping rifle to protect their clients.

    MY vote for what your using it for use the 35 whelen and 250gr partitions. Your not hunting bear which it would be fine for ,but you want a substandcial caritrige in case you had to deal with a bear. Thats exactly why small er Alaskan game is hunted with whelens and 338 mags. As for a rifle I pick a lighter faster handling one over a large cal in a heaver gun that is not a fast to aim as the litter rifle something else to concider.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by tjen View Post
      It has been choose by PH's for a Stopping rifle to protect their clients.
      Who? Not even a considered round for most PH's for client to use as a dangerous game rifle let alone for a PH to use as a stopping rifle. An interesting discussion of PH's stopping rifles. Feel free to count the number of .45-70s listed and then get back to me. Not being a butt, but if you know of ANY PH that uses one I'd be interested to know.

      Accurate Reloading PH rifle thread: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3051091101/p/1

      Brett

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer View Post
        Who? Not even a considered round for most PH's for client to use as a dangerous game rifle let alone for a PH to use as a stopping rifle. An interesting discussion of PH's stopping rifles. Feel free to count the number of .45-70s listed and then get back to me. Not being a butt, but if you know of ANY PH that uses one I'd be interested to know.

        Accurate Reloading PH rifle thread: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3051091101/p/1

        Brett
        I concur!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by mauserboy View Post
          I'd get a .375 either H&H or Ruger, 21" barrel, 300 grain load.
          With the .375 Ruger's shorter case, unbelted brass (only ONE company makes a full-length resizing die for belted brass!), and slightly improved ballistics ...why does anyone buy a .375 H&H anymore? Anyway ...not trying to hijack the thread ... PM your answers to me!

          bd

          Comment


          • #50
            Choose the one that handles best for you

            My Winchester M94BB's fill this role for me. They are comfortable to tote and quick to the shoulder. My newest is a .356Win which pushes a 220gr Speer Hot-Core at 2292fps (10 shot-string avg) out of a 20in barrel.

            Good luck and have fun deciding. They will all do the job if you do yours.
            Afflicted by condition human

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer View Post
              Who? Not even a considered round for most PH's for client to use as a dangerous game rifle let alone for a PH to use as a stopping rifle. An interesting discussion of PH's stopping rifles. Feel free to count the number of .45-70s listed and then get back to me. Not being a butt, but if you know of ANY PH that uses one I'd be interested to know.

              Accurate Reloading PH rifle thread: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3051091101/p/1

              Brett
              Guns and Ammo's "Cartridges" magazine just did an artical on 45/70 hard cast ammo like Garretts. And if I get this right they were using 520gr at 1540fps because it penitrate better than if it was loaded at an higher velocity. They killed all six dangerous game animals and did a rino north to south with complete penitration. The writter I forget his name but is very well known states he choose the marlin 45/70 for his PH wapon because of its known performance as a stopping rifle and because PH's are liable for the protection of their clients. He at some time did stop a chargin cape buffalo that "was bent an human destruction" one shot from the marlin 45/70 stoped it. The bullet intered just under it chin and exited the the buff's ham I think tha ts another N to S and how long is a buff from chest to rear end say six feet at least? :eek: He said during penitration testing it completely out did other well known stopper like a 416 and such but read the article to get it correct I don't remember it exactly.

              Does not wild west arms make their living making custum 45/70 and the likes for stopping rifles for Alaskan hunters and Brown Bears?:cool:

              Comment


              • #52
                protecting my sensitive skin

                Originally posted by tjen View Post
                Guns and Ammo's "Cartridges" magazine just did an artical on 45/70 hard cast ammo like Garretts. And if I get this right they were using 520gr at 1540fps because it penitrate better than if it was loaded at an higher velocity. They killed all six dangerous game animals and did a rino north to south with complete penitration. The writter I forget his name but is very well known states he choose the marlin 45/70 for his PH wapon because of its known performance as a stopping rifle and because PH's are liable for the protection of their clients. He at some time did stop a chargin cape buffalo that "was bent an human destruction" one shot from the marlin 45/70 stoped it. The bullet intered just under it chin and exited the the buff's ham I think tha ts another N to S and how long is a buff from chest to rear end say six feet at least? He said during penitration testing it completely out did other well known stopper like a 416 and such but read the article to get it correct I don't remember it exactly.

                Does not wild west arms make their living making custum 45/70 and the likes for stopping rifles for Alaskan hunters and Brown Bears?
                This sounds good to me, but, I doubt many trust lever guns for everyday Pro use! And I doubt they trust the 45/70 caliber if only because of tradition. In life and death situations Pros trust what has worked and do not change easily. I would not trust one in Africa for dangerous game, although I am confident that I could most likely take them all with the 45/70. You state one case and he may have killed it just as dead with a 30/06 in that specific spot. Take a survey of 100 charges and the percentage of success I would trust to the .416 Rigby or 458 Lott to be much higher. When it comes to protecting my sensitive skin, I'll stick to the highest odds possible, thank you
                Last edited by Proud American; 05-06-2009, 13:29. Reason: adding a few words

                Comment


                • #53
                  Haha! I thought "medium bore" referred to .416 / .430 calibers....

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Proud American View Post
                    This sounds good to me, but, I doubt many trust lever guns for everyday Pro use! And I doubt they trust the 45/70 caliber if only because of tradition. In life and death situations Pros trust what has worked and do not change easily. I would not trust one in Africa for dangerous game, although I am confident that I could most likely take them all with the 45/70. You state one case and he may have killed it just as dead with a 30/06 in that specific spot. Take a survey of 100 charges and the percentage of success I would trust to the .416 Rigby or 458 Lott to be much higher. When it comes to protecting my sensitive skin, I'll stick to the highest odds possible, thank you
                    I will take a good lever over a bolt every time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                    Cant count the number of rounds I have put through lever guns without a hitch, but I have had a number of feed problums with bolts over the years.
                    Andy
                    On the web= C-lazy-F.co
                    Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
                    Call/Text 602-315-2406
                    Phoenix Arizona

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Boddington recently (December 2008) had an article in Sports Afield about a servey of PH's he completed for his updated Safari Rifles book. It was very interesting and shed some light into this very issue. He serveyed over 100 experience African PHs who guide for dangerous game about what rifles they use and what rifles they recomend to their clients for various dangerous game. Lever actions and more poiniantly cartriges like the .45-70 were not even mentioned in the entire article for PH's use or for recommendations to clients. That says way more than I ever could hacking it out with someone about the finer points of cartrages, ballistics, and physics.

                      I class lever actions for African dangerous game the same way I class bows. It's a stunt plain and simple. You sure aren't using it because it's the most affective thing out there. I would love to shoot a brown bear and an elephant with a bow some day. It's been done and it's effective, but a stunt for sure! You use them because you have an affinity for them or that's all that's available to you or you don't know enough about modern rifle cartriges and ballistics to understand they are a handicap. I'm not condemning them at all I just think you need not fool yourself into thinking a .45-70 can hold pace with a .458 Lott or .450 Nitro for that matter. Terry Wieland (who together with Craig Boddington probably know more about dangerous game cartriges and dangerous game hunting than 99.9999% of todays outdoor writers combined) in his book Dangerous Game Rifles sums it up about as well as you can:

                      With good bullets and hot loads, .444 Marlin, .45-70, and .405 Winchester would all be adequite for lions or leopards. In fact, the 1985M might make an excellent weapon for wounded leopards in thick bush, but that is the extent of their application as dangerous game rifles in modern Africa. The big bore lever action was always a rifle for the alder thickets of coastal Alaska, and that is were it should remain.

                      Brett

                      PS. I know they are popular up here and I'm not trying to put a stick in anyone's eye. I'm just being frank.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        45/70

                        Brett you might "just be being frank" but you are also wrong. The marlin 45/70 really made the lever gun a viable option for dangerous game, not to discount the 86s or 95s. That being said in Africia there are not to many places to buy a marlin let alone 45/70 ammo. There is however a few PHs who are starting to notice the neat little 45/70 guide gun. The 45/70 with proper bullets will kill anything on earth and do it in a hurry, combine that with the fastest action other than a semi auto and you have as good a rig as can be bought. Remember Brian Pearces Africian hunt?? He shot clean through 3 cape buffs with 1 round! How about Bell?? wasnt his elephant count near 300?? all with the 303 and 7 by 57!! Im a fan of big bores they have their place problem is VERY few can shoot them well. The 45/70 is easy to shoot and if you dont think it will penatrate well enough do more research, with some bullets in some tests done a few years ago it beat the 458 winnie.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          cant help it

                          cant help it! i have just taken the time to read some posts below and i have to ask this question to Brett and Proud American have you ever used the 45/70?? ever shot a bear?? Sorry but i think if someone asks a question they deserve a good answer. To start off with paper numbers are just that paper numbers. I saw a black bear shot with a 416 a couple years ago, he was hit too far back and lived until the next morning. More bears are "stopped" each year by 30/30s and 303s by trappers guides and prospectors than all other calibers combined. In last months Rifle mag. the best bear guide of all time (Phil Shoemaker) was holding a 45/70 lever gun, another old time guide trapper he runs Sheep River hunting camps up in AK. uses and has for years 45/70s in marlins and winchesters. If you like the real big guns go for it but dont tell people they wont work. Lots of guys with way more experince disagree with you.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Like I said before I helped recover a big brown bore that was shot in the butt with a 45-70 405 grain hard cast, went through the pelvis, about 16” of back bones, through the shoulder bones, then through the bottom of the skull next to the neck to scramble the bear’s brain. After seeing that I would feel as safe facing a charging bull elephant with a 45-70 as about any other round short my 50BMG.
                            Andy
                            On the web= C-lazy-F.co
                            Email= Andy@C-lazy-F.co
                            Call/Text 602-315-2406
                            Phoenix Arizona

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              The gentelman who started this asked what rifle to take to protect his kid on a hunt. I simply suggested not to ask what's the minimum that will do the job, but just take something there's no question about. Sounds like reasonable advice to me coming from a first time hunter, nonhunter, or even Phil or Bell themselves. I never said they don't work. Nor did I say at any time that they won't kill a bear, buffalo, elephant, ect. They do work and they will kill. We seem to be speaking across points on this. I'm saying they aren't a stopping rifle for African game and not as good as others for bears. Your hearing they are worthless and won't kill a bear. They still aren't a PH stopping rifle for African Dangerous Game. There are definitely people with way more experience than me that think I'm wrong. There are also people with way more experience than me who agree with me. I am familiar with Phil from Accurate Reloading which he contributes to often. He currently carries a .458win.

                              No I have not used a .45-70. No I have not shot a brown bear yet. Being new to Alaska I haven't gone into that yet. I have experience with large bores and African Dangerous game. I reload and am very familiar with physics and rifle ballistics. My comments in the last several post are in response to the idea that PHs for dangerous game in Africa frequently or at all carry lever rifles or .45-70.

                              PS Bell killed more elephants than that. You are correct that he killed some of them with small calibres. Bell did not exclusively use those calibres. He did carry large calibres also and used them frequently especially in close bush and following wounded elephant.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Quotes from Phil himself:

                                "I built a "guide gun" ten or twelve years ago by sawing four inches off of a Marlin M-95 45-70 for my wife to carry. I prefer a Browning 1886 45-70 as it is smoother and holds more ammo. Both are loades with 430 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast bullets. I carry mine daily when guiding salmon fishermen on the Alaskan peninsula but prefer my 458 Mauser when guiding bear hunters. Still I would not feel unarmed at all if required to use the 45-70."

                                Another good quote:

                                "Doug, Taj andI were playing with his 475 Turnbull and it looks like it might be about as good a back up rifle as is avaliable anywhere. I plan on testing it this year along with a 450/400 dbl and my 458."

                                I think we can leave it at that.

                                Comment

                                Footer Adsense

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X