35whelen question?



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  • 35whelen question?

    Lets say you were gonna build a whelen and you want to shoot 225gr barnes X bullets out of a 22" tube. what twist would you go for?


  • #2
    1 in 15 is pretty standard for 35 caliber.


    • #3
      My Remington 700 CDL 35 Whelen

      has a 1:16" twist and stabilizes both the 225gr Partitions and 250gr Partitions (factory loaded by Nosler Custom). The 225gr Barnes X would be a great choice for both bullet weight and ballistic coefficient for this caliber.

      Nosler Custom loads the 225gr to 2720 ft/sec. Let me know what kind of velocities you end up getting.


      • #4

        I'd go with a 1-14 or 1-12. The barnes X is longer than typical bullets it's size due to the all copper construction, so a bit more twist is better than not enough. My 35 whelen ackley was a 1-14, and my 350 rem mag is a 1-12, and they both work well with 225's and 250's. I'd personally avoid the 1-16 as I think it is marginal.
        Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

        If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.


        • #5
          I saw Deathray's mention of the Nosler ammo, and thought, "no way! what are they using a 28"bbl?". Looked at my Barnes book and sure enough; RL15 will yield 2700+ with a 225 grainer out of a 24"bbl.

          If I was going to do a custom barrel on an `06 necked up cartridge, I would go Ackley Improved; get another 75/100 fps out of the better capacity and neck profile. Can still shoot factory ctgs in a pinch.

          Anybody owning one of these shoot pistol bullets for reduced loads?
          Might be pretty neat to have a chamber insert or Marble's type adapter to enable shooting .357s and 38s. That's why we chose the 35 Whelen for my son's first big game rifle; adaptability. Although we have not gotten round to trying reduced loads in it yet.

          Best of luck with your new rifle.


          • #6
            35 whelen performance

            Paul H and Lester-

            I know what you mean about doubting the performance of the Nosler Custom ammo. When I first saw their published data I thought, "No way!". I did the same thing, started getting in my reloading books to verify that kind of performance was feasible. Shooting their loads side-by-side against the Remington core-lokt factory load you could definitely tell that the Noslers were loaded hotter.

            Also, after I shoot the factory barrel out of this gun (3-5 years down the road), I plan on going to a 1:10" or 1:12" twist. Woodleigh makes a 300gr bullet that I think would be incredible for sectional density (s.d.= penetration) for moose and bear.

            Try the Nosler custom ammo if you want some extremely accurate factory ammo that's loaded hotter than normal (no signs of excessive pressure on the cases or cratering of primers).

            Thanks for not "blasting" the author when some unknown (and unlikely) data surfaces. Sometimes it does turn out to be true.


            • #7
              Having had a 35 whelen ackley, I would highly recomend against the chambering if your goal is an extra 100 fps, as the only way the ackley achieves that is by running at high pressure, not some magic efficiency. If you really want more than a 35 whelen, then by all means get a 358 Norma magnum.

              I have had a 35 whelen ackley, so that isn't idle speculation. My goal was to get 35 whelen performance at slightly less pressure, not to exceed that level of performance. Unfortunately that gun would not group at those levels, and had to be pushed before it grouped. I'd say that was entirely a gunsmithing issue and not related to the chambering. I quickly tired of fireforming brass, the nearly straight case didn't feed smoothly, and I ended up re-chambering.

              The 35 whelen works great with reduced loads, try 12-15 gr of Unique under a 150-180 gr pistol bullet, and you'll get 1200-1700 fps. Very mild recoil, 50 yd groups will be around 1", and they are great fun to shoot.
              Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

              If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.


              • #8
                Townsend and Parker

                Originally posted by Paul H View Post
                the only way the ackley achieves that is by running at high pressure......

                I agree with everything you said except the above. There may not be much difference in velocity in some guns but because the powder vessel is larger more acceleration of the bullet can be acheived with more powder at the same pressure. Thats just the way the dynamics of it work. That's why the 358 Norma is able to give more velocity with the same weight bullet, at the same pressure. We can discuss how much gain and whether it's worth it or not, I don't thnk it is either, but there other advantages. I've owned a number, (more than a dozen) of Ackley-ized calibers and there are advantages to some of them. The Whelen doesn't have an excess powder capacity anyway so a little help, particularly with the heavier bullets, is good.

                I have a 338-06 AI that is a very good shooter, but if I had it to do again I wouldn't do the AI on that caliber, mainly because it is now standard as a 338-06. I also have an FN Mauser which feeds the 30-06 AI with ease and gives very good velocity with modest powder charges. 180 grains at an easy 2900 fps. I would not AI any smaller caliber, I think it is a bad idea from the stand point of effeciency. But there is an advantage of the 3-5 grains more powder in the 35, 375 and 400 calibers on that case. The original 400 Whelen (which predates the 35) was an ackley type shoulder and minimum taper to allow it to headspace on the shoulder. I think that was lost in some new chambering reamers. I found an original G&H rifle which I couldn't afford, but borrowed and fireformed some brass in it. It definately has a shoulder and headspaces just fine on it. I have dies made now to fit the brass and will soon have a manson reamer. It is just a 400 Whelen, with a straightened case.

                Honestly, I think AI is a fad which has died away. The real reason for it was to get a bit more from and existing rifle and still use factory ammo (albeit a bit slower), now days folks just buy another rifle in a magnum caliber. I only did it for the experiment and to learn first hand how they were. I'm done with it but do have a couple of keepers in AI.

                Thanks for your input and good shootin'.

                Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?


                • #9
                  Thanks for the ideas. I'm not really interested in the AI route.


                  • #10

                    You didn't fully quote me, and that is critical to the point I was making. I said, to get an extra 100 fps from an ackley improved you need to opperate at higher pressures. Yes, you will gain a small amount of velocity opperating at the same pressure as the parent round 25-50 fps, but no way you'll gain 100 fps in the same length barrel. The ackley is a larger case less than 5% larger.

                    Velocities generally increase at 1/4 the amount the case capacity increases, so an ackley can be expected to increase velocity at the same pressure by a wopping 1% and change. With a nominal muzzle velocity of 2500 fps, that gains a wopping 30 fps. A std chambering or ackley can be run past max loads with no pressure signs, but that doesn't mean one isn't running high pressure.

                    It's like boring a small block Chevy 0.030" over, you'll make small amounts of power, but in no way shape or form does it become a big block.

                    The same holds exactly true for the ackley improved -06 varients. They gain a small increase in velocity, but they don't make the -06 into a belted magnum. That some achieve such velocities is based solely on running very high pressures.
                    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

                    If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.


                    • #11
                      I bought a couple of reamers on Ebay. A .30-06 AI which fireforms a standard 06 case into a thing of beauty, although maybe a Gibbs would be "better" for more horsepower. The other is a Clymer .338-300 which I have tested and seems very strong and accurate.

                      The .35 Whelen really doesn't have the shoulder dimension that the .30-06 gains, but does it benefit from straightening the body taper? That might be very worth while. Maybe it is doubtful that the case gains that much, but I like the "better" and abrupt shoulder.

                      I bought a .35 Whelen take off barrel years ago and had a spare Rem 700 LA doing nothing so we mounted it up and my son likes it, something he can walk the woods with and shoot accurately. ***Thanks Paul for those plinker loads, I will write them down.***

                      I look at the .338-300 as a kind of improved .338 Win Mag which I thought was a tad anemic for 250 grain bullets which I favor. The .338-300 shoots my basic .338 Win Mag load easy as pie. 65 gr of xmr4350 with a Sierra 250 gameking. I worked up to 76 grains and got splendid accuracy with the load. I will use it in the field. Seems to duplicate the .330 Dakota and give the same performance level as .340 Weatherby.

                      Reading Phil Sharpe, maybe I will find the wildcat to be hard on barrels. Sharpe commented that most wildcats don't prove out for one reason or another.

                      My goal was more velocity, standard .532 bolt head diameter, shorter than Wby or RUM case length, cheaper brass, and more room in the 700 magazine for bullet seating depth variations.

                      I have seen no pressure signs, even loading the bullet almost to the end of the magazine dimension.

                      Then again, comparing the 300 Wby with the .340 Wby which is the same relationship the 300 Win Mag and .338-300 have, the only difference is an extra almost 2 grains of water from the larger neck diameter. Anyhow, I extrapolated data using same bullet weight at powders for a constant and saw that (in the Barnes manual) about 16% more powder was available before hitting the max load limit for the 340 with the 250 gr bullet. About 12% more for the 200 grain bullet.

                      I compared the .300 and .330 Dakota ctgs which, alternately, have identical grain capacities because the .330 case was made to smaller dimensions. I saw similar gains with and just minor differences in percentages; so I felt safe in setting upward boundaries using the data I interpreted.

                      Anyway, when my backyard test firing of the upper-limit load did not blow up my gun or flatten the primer, I felt pretty safe. After sighting in the collimators suggestion, laying prone in the neighborhood gravel pit, I fired 4 of the 5 heavy loads into about 1", with all touching. Not bad for a heavy trigger and target that was a cardboard box with a round aiming point.

                      I think I could do just as good with the AI'd `06. Might even rival my .308 for accuracy, then I'd have a pretty useful AK woods loafing gun. Have to think about having more case capacity and less neck than the AI has. Be pretty interesting to see how this gun shoots 200 gr MatchKings.

                      Then again, I am thinking the .338-300 will do it all, and with cheap readily available brass.

                      I am a handloader. I have rarely bought factory ammo. Even in `68, when I bought my first .270 BDL, I handloaded for it rather than purchase ammunition. Still have those Speer-DWM cases.

                      A .35 Whelen with a better neck and body dimension seems just more correct to me.

                      Reading that manual and seeing again what a perfect ctg the whelen is for AK, I though "why not a .358-300?" We'll see.

                      Thanks for letting me momentarily sidetrack your thread, Blink.


                      • #12
                        35 Whelen

                        Twist rate? I think for the 225 Barnes, 250 Nosler Partition, or similar bullet lengths I'd go with the 1:14 twist. If going to anything much longer, heavier I'd be tempted to specify the 1:12 twist. Also, the 35 Whelen is one of the relativley few cartridges that benefit in two ways with the AI version in that the enlarged body plus the 40' shoulder makes for positive, firm and repeatable headspacing. Like it or not the 35 Whelen stretches the case body quite a bit because of the shallow and low angle 17.5' shoulder of the parent 30-06. As far as the other benefit, performance gain... that seems secondary to the positive headspacing, at least for me. $.02


                        • #13
                          Lester, no problem with me on highjacking the thread. I learn more (pro's and cons on a subject)

                          So basically something in the neighborhood of 1:14 is the way to go.



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