A funny thang hoppen

[Smitty of the North]

I had meself, some 100 rounds of handloaded 357s, with 158 grain Hornady XTPs. and 14 grains of 2400, loaded in NEW Nickel flavored R-P brass.

I shot'em up so's I could use the brass, and I don't care much for jacketed bullets in my gun anyway. I had just got the stuff and loaded them for something to do.

THEN, I loaded up 18 test loads with cast bullets, and 5 out of the 18, showed gas leakage around the primers. WHAT??? This is new brass, not a hot load, so what did I do wrong?

Instead of Sheet-canning the brass as BAD, I marked the case heads with a red sharpie pen, cleaned the primer pockets, and reloaded the same 5 brass again with a lightER proven load, I've used before, and on firing them, there was NO SIGN of a problem. SOOO, I loaded the HOTTEST TEST Load in them, again, and STILL, No Problem. (No Gas leakage.)

I dunno what's goin on. When I loaded the rest of the 100 brass, I noticed I had a SPLIT CASE, in the bunch. It was NEW BRASS, having been fired only ONE TIME.

Maybe, I'll just go to the Gun Show, this weekend and forget it ever happened.

Smitty of the North

[ADfields]

Don't know whats with the primers, but that nickel stuff do like to split and not just at the neck.:mad: Ya shoud get 2 or 3 from them before they do though.:confused:

I would anneal them soon as they were empty if it was me.

Andy

[Murphy]

I've seen primer leaks in Nickel cases before and my theory for your .....ah, leakage is that the primer and the new nickel coated pockets are too slick to friction fit together. MY guess you used nickel coated primers too. And it's been my experience that CCI leak more often because the cup is stronger and will not expand to help fill the gap.

These are only unsubstantiated theories and I easily fixed all such problems by not allowing nickel cases on my loading bench. I won't load them unless there is no other way around the barn. They are pretty and I'm sure that's what the Lone Ranger carried as his silver bullets, but I don't like them at all. Another thing, are those cases really nickel plated or is it chrome?



What do you mean Lone Ranger, hell, even Indians can count! (Tonto)

[ADfields]

I've seen primer leaks in Nickel cases before and my theory for your .....ah, leakage is that the primer and the new nickel coated pockets are too slick to friction fit together. MY guess you used nickel coated primers too. And it's been my experience that CCI leak more often because the cup is stronger and will not expand to help fill the gap.

These are only unsubstantiated theories and I easily fixed all such problems by not allowing nickel cases on my loading bench. I won't load them unless there is no other way around the barn. They are pretty and I'm sure that's what the Lone Ranger carried as his silver bullets, but I don't like them at all. Another thing, are those cases really nickel plated or is it chrome?

What do you mean Lone Ranger, hell, even Indians can count! (Tonto)

I like your theory on the primer leaks, it makes perfect since to me. I only use nickel plated for home defense where the ammo may sit for a very long time in a revolver, it is a PITA though. The plane brass will rot and corrode under these conditions but the nickel will sit there just fine.

I worked a summer at a chrome plate shop as a kid and learned that the chrome its self is clear like glass. The mirror like shine comes from the nickel that’s under the chrome like the mercury on the back of an old mirror. I don't know if they put chrome on nickel plated cases or not, but ether way they have nickel on them.

Here is some trivia for Lone Ranger fans.
1> So what does “Tonto”, the Lone Ranger’s pet name for his sidekick, mean in Spanish?
2> Tonto called the Lone Ranger “Kimo-sabe” (who ever you spell it?) so what does that mean in Indian (Sioux, if I remember)?
I have long wondered if they meant the names as a joke or if they just had no clue what they were saying.:confused:

Andy

[Smitty of the North]

Murphy:
Your "guess" is better'n any I could come up with, and the additional info is appreciated too.

BTW, I use CCI primers exclusively. The only other brand I've tried were Federal Small Pistol.

I uniformed the Primer pockets, on the 2nd loading, I'm not sure if I was into PP uniforming when they were loaded the first time, so I figger you nailed the problem.

Regarding Nickel, (Chrome??) cases, I don't like them much, either, (Won't reload them for (bottle-neck) Rifle. but I've had no trouble with them in 38, 357, and even 44 Mag.

(Mostly, I use Brass, brass.) The pretty ones do have one decided advantage, however. They don't corrode up in leather belt loops. That's why I got a bunch of Nickel/??Chrome 44 cases. My gun has Brass, brass, in the cylinder, and Nickel/??Chrome in belt loops.

Well, I am relieved, and even Thankful.
Smitty of the North

I've seen primer leaks in Nickel cases before and my theory for your .....ah, leakage is that the primer and the new nickel coated pockets are too slick to friction fit together. MY guess you used nickel coated primers too. And it's been my experience that CCI leak more often because the cup is stronger and will not expand to help fill the gap.

These are only unsubstantiated theories and I easily fixed all such problems by not allowing nickel cases on my loading bench. I won't load them unless there is no other way around the barn. They are pretty and I'm sure that's what the Lone Ranger carried as his silver bullets, but I don't like them at all. Another thing, are those cases really nickel plated or is it chrome?



What do you mean Lone Ranger, hell, even Indians can count! (Tonto)

[Murphy]

I like your theory on the primer leaks, it makes perfect since to me. I only use nickel plated for home defense where the ammo may sit for a very long time in a revolver, it is a PITA though. The plane brass will rot and corrode under these conditions but the nickel will sit there just fine.

I worked a summer at a chrome plate shop as a kid and learned that the chrome its self is clear like glass. The mirror like shine comes from the nickel that’s under the chrome like the mercury on the back of an old mirror. I don't know if they put chrome on nickel plated cases or not, but ether way they have nickel on them.

Here is some trivia for Lone Ranger fans.
1> So what does “Tonto”, the Lone Ranger’s pet name for his sidekick, mean in Spanish?
2> Tonto called the Lone Ranger “Kimo-sabe” (who ever you spell it?) so what does that mean in Indian (Sioux, if I remember)?
I have long wondered if they meant the names as a joke or if they just had no clue what they were saying.:confused:

Andy

When I was a snot nosed kid I never missed listening to the radio show of the Lone Ranger, aired at 4:30 each week day evening and 10:00 in the morning on Saturday. The radio voice was that of William Conrad, who later became a famous TV detective (Jake and the fat man, he was the fat man) and the faithful side kick Tonto was voiced by some English dude but he didn't talk much on radio. The show began on TV in about 1955 but I never saw a tv set until 1956. I watched that show and of course Roy and Dale, Tom Mix and a couple other gun totin' good guys.

Tonto likely named after the area of the southwest, like Tonto national forest in Arizona means stupid in Spanish and keh-mo-sah-be ( I don't know how to spell it) was supposed to me faithful friend in Tonto's native language, what ever that was. All I know is that I wanted to be able to shoot like that and spent thousands of hours and rounds of ammo to achieve that level, I still suck at it. I did meet a rather impressive Marine out in California who could shoot like the tv heros with a 1911 45 caliber pistol. I took lessons from him and I watched in awe as he would throw seven clays (skeet disks) into the air and shoot them all before they hit the ground. I was there in Nyland the day he hit seven of seven for the first time. All one handed and all from the holster. I took notice also that all seven spent pieces of brass were in the air above the desert floor when the slide locked open. I was inspired. This fellows name was Thell Reed and, though they never met as far as I know, I'll bet he could take the Lone Ranger.

[ADfields]

When I was a snot nosed kid I never missed listening to the radio show of the Lone Ranger, aired at 4:30 each week day evening and 10:00 in the morning on Saturday. The radio voice was that of William Conrad, who later became a famous TV detective (Jake and the fat man, he was the fat man) and the faithful side kick Tonto was voiced by some English dude but he didn't talk much on radio. The show began on TV in about 1955 but I never saw a tv set until 1956. I watched that show and of course Roy and Dale, Tom Mix and a couple other gun totin' good guys.

Tonto likely named after the area of the southwest, like Tonto national forest in Arizona means stupid in Spanish and keh-mo-sah-be ( I don't know how to spell it) was supposed to me faithful friend in Tonto's native language, what ever that was. All I know is that I wanted to be able to shoot like that and spent thousands of hours and rounds of ammo to achieve that level, I still suck at it. I did meet a rather impressive Marine out in California who could shoot like the tv heros with a 1911 45 caliber pistol. I took lessons from him and I watched in awe as he would throw seven clays (skeet disks) into the air and shoot them all before they hit the ground. I was there in Nyland the day he hit seven of seven for the first time. All one handed and all from the holster. I took notice also that all seven spent pieces of brass were in the air above the desert floor when the slide locked open. I was inspired. This fellows name was Thell Reed and, though they never met as far as I know, I'll bet he could take the Lone Ranger.

Yup, don't go calling Hispanics "Tonto" which has no true translation but “crazy-stupid” together come very close. Since Hispanics were in the west before the Mayflower landed on that rock back east, most cowboys in the west spoke Spanish well. The name Tonto also fits Arizona’s Tonto National Forest since 95% of it is desert brush without a tree over 10 feet tall. My family settled south of Prescott Arizona near Bloody Basin around 1895 or so and we call that area Four Peaks, or jokingly “Stupid Forest.”

Keh-mo-sah-be (to use your phonetic spelling) I was told by the Mandan wife of my life long best friend (a Navajo) means “white eyes.” It’s a derogatory term for white people, something on the line of “honky” or “Cracker” but it’s widely used among western tribes.

I was hooked on the TV show as a kid and my dream was to shoot from under a running horse like they did. I’m lucky to be alive after trying it with a loaded 22 revolver at a dead run, its dangerous enough falling from a horse at over 35mph, but add the loaded gun and it’s beyond dumb! One of my Uncles ran a wrecker service out of Phoenix and he picked up what was left of Tom Mix’s car and horse trailer after he crashed and died south of Casa Grande on the old road to Tucson. He was a true Cowboy not an actor and he may have been the last true cowboy in the movies. You forgot Gene Autry and his horse Champion, that’s my favorite singing cowboy even though he was not on TV till the 80’s. Remember the bridle bit he used on Champion, a Colt Pacemaker split in half and was on my Christmas list for years. I have a pair of lady leg spurs my wife got me one year so maybe I need to put the six-gun bit back on my list.

Roy and Dale were the kind of people this world needs now! They took in needy kids like some old women do cats and they were everyone loved and adopted. I think they had just under 50 kids in all and I have never heard a bad word in the press about any of them, that’s parenting to do that in Sothern California! Both Roy and Dale, and Gene Autry have good museums in California, Gene’s is in Burbank (I think) and Roy and Dale’s is in Victorville high desert.

Sorry for the hijack and long aimless post!
Andy

[pinehavensredrocket]

sorry you are having the problem! just perhaps your primer pockets were not "uniform" after the nickle process. using them maybe solved that problem so they went on to function normally. i like nickle brass........and with the straight wall case haven't had many more splits using regular brass. we used to load (and reload) thousands of them for our dept shoots. they lasted well unless "over worked" at the neck.

nickle brass for pistol or rifle seems to me, to be less prone to hold debris which ends up in the gun. being harder, this seems reasonable.

thell reed was a child shooting prodigy famous for single, double, and semi-auto work. he still is. now though, he works for the film industry teaching cowboy actors how to look like they know what they are doing.

i was also a big fan of the serial westerns, and have purchased several to watch again. sergeant preston and yukon king also. good memories!

[Smitty of the North]

sorry you are having the problem! just perhaps your primer pockets were not "uniform" after the nickle process. using them maybe solved that problem so they went on to function normally. i like nickle brass........and with the straight wall case haven't had many more splits using regular brass. we used to load (and reload) thousands of them for our dept shoots. they lasted well unless "over worked" at the neck.

nickle brass for pistol or rifle seems to me, to be less prone to hold debris which ends up in the gun. being harder, this seems reasonable.

Murphy gave a very plausible reason for my leaks around the primer problem, and it figures.

I now, believe that the 5 cases didn't fit the 5 primers, both nickel, and when I reloaded the cases, I uniformed the primer pockets, causing them to fit.

The case that split on the first firing is further evidence that the problem was with the cases/nickel/brittle, Whatever.

I've reloaded LOTS of nickel brass with straight walls, and never had a problem, but that doesn't mean nickel cases can't be problematic in the right, or wrong, mix of variables.

The reason that I don't use Nickel Brass for bottle-neck cases is that RCBS says, (I know because, I emailed them.) that Nickel Brass can damage a reloading die. I felt that since the case is worked on the neck and shoulder, it's probably more likely that the nickel would flake off than with a straight wall case. ???

If you reload NEW Nickel Brass the first time where in sizing, the die barely touches it, (I've done that for someone) I can't see a problem. I hear that others have reloaded Nickel Brass without apparent damage to their dies.

It was my understanding the reason for the Nickel handgun brass was to prevent corrosion in the revolvers carried by law enforcement peoples.

Before Murphy explained what could have happened, I was really at a loss to explain it.

Smitty of the North

[ADfields]

I've reloaded LOTS of nickel brass with straight walls, and never had a problem, but that doesn't mean nickel cases can't be problematic in the right, or wrong, mix of variables.

The reason that I don't use Nickel Brass for bottle-neck cases is that RCBS says, (I know because, I emailed them.) that Nickel Brass can damage a reloading die. I felt that since the case is worked on the neck and shoulder, it's probably more likely that the nickel would flake off than with a straight wall case. ???

I would think your flaking off theory is very plausible even though I have never messed with necked nickel brass myself.

I did kill an RCBS 357 full length size die with nickel so I know it can. What happened was a neck cracked as it went in and then the hard nickel made a scratch all the way up the die, a deep scratch. I lifted the arm and saw the neck had folded the sides overlapped for about 1/8” down from the mouth. This made the bottom of the 1/8” crack pucker out into my die like a little “V” gouge chisel. I tossed the bad brass and thought nothing more of it until I felt (not saw but felt) a scratch on a case as I was cleaning primer pockets. I ruined about 40 of my 100 cases that day along with the die.

I had loaded thousands of them to that point and think they were cleaner so better for the die in that way. On the other hand it only took one stroke of the arm with a marginal case to trash the die completely. I look and feel every nickel case after every operation now, it’s slower working but faster than tossing everything and starting over.

It was my understanding the reason for the Nickel handgun brass was to prevent corrosion in the revolvers carried by law enforcement peoples
Smitty of the North

When my Dad worked as a police reserve he was issued nickel ammo for his 38. When he asked why it was required they said they were less prone to corrode and so less likely to fail to fire or get stuck in the cylinder after they fired. Nothing to do with looks at all. I like the look of yellow brass better myself, but have home defense guns that sit loaded for a year or more at a time that I keep nickel in.

Andy

[Smitty of the North]

I would think your flaking off theory is very plausible even though I have never messed with necked nickel brass myself.

I did kill an RCBS 357 full length size die with nickel so I know it can. What happened was a neck cracked as it went in and then the hard nickel made a scratch all the way up the die, a deep scratch. I lifted the arm and saw the neck had folded the sides overlapped for about 1/8” down from the mouth. This made the bottom of the 1/8” crack pucker out into my die like a little “V” gouge chisel. I tossed the bad brass and thought nothing more of it until I felt (not saw but felt) a scratch on a case as I was cleaning primer pockets. I ruined about 40 of my 100 cases that day along with the die.

I had loaded thousands of them to that point and think they were cleaner so better for the die in that way. On the other hand it only took one stroke of the arm with a marginal case to trash the die completely. I look and feel every nickel case after every operation now, it’s slower working but faster than tossing everything and starting over.
Andy

Yeah, but it couldn't happen to ME.

Thanks for the info AD. That it can happen with a straight wall case.

If I load Nickel cases again, I will consider my die at risk.

Smitty of the North