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Ackley improved cartridge info sources?

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  • Murphy
    replied
    Waters Pet Loads

    Originally posted by BrownBear View Post
    Hey Stevelyn-

    Check out Ken Waters' Pet Loads manuals. He's extenive data for the 338-06 Imp.
    I do like Ken Waters and his systematic techniques in regard to loading but I think my pet loads book(s) just have the RCBS versions of the improved cases. These are 28 degree shouders and have the shoulder moved forward a bit so they won't headspace factory ammo. They hold a grain or two more powder so data isn't quite the same. The data is similar and could be used for reference. I will have some more data posted soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • trailblazersteve
    replied
    Hey Murphy,what can you tell me about a .280 AI rem.I bought this rifle 5 years ago for my daughters to shoot caribou.I bought it because it is a nice light,small(short) gun that I thought they would be able to shoot comfortably.Well,found out it kicks pretty good but I love the groups it shoots and it is now my "go to" gun for most of my hunts.I have taken lynx,goats,sheep,moose and more then one black bear.It has dropped every one of those animals dead and some of them at quite long distances.OBTW,I shoot 160 grain barnsTS.

    Leave a comment:


  • stevelyn
    replied
    Thanks, I'll do that.

    I was actually debating getting Pet Loads. I found one on sale in a sale flyer recently.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrownBear
    replied
    Hey Stevelyn-

    Check out Ken Waters' Pet Loads manuals. He's extenive data for the 338-06 Imp.

    Leave a comment:


  • mitchagain
    replied
    6.5x55Imp

    I got a real interest in loads for this gun. I have the action and the time, I am going to build a 6.5 this winter and not sure if I want the 6.5x55imp or a 6.5x.284. Both are almost identical ballistically but the '55 would be easier (cheaper) to get brass for.....

    Leave a comment:


  • stevelyn
    replied
    Murphy,

    I have two Chuck Daly Mauser actions that I bought about a month ago. One of them is getting built into a .338-06 AI.
    I'd appreciate some load data if at all possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • RainGull
    replied
    Hey Murphy, I'd be interested in the 6.5-06AI data if it isn't much trouble.

    Leave a comment:


  • JWB
    replied
    Why wait for spring?

    There don't seem to be very many published authorities as to loads,
    velocities, findings, etc.
    Would appreciate if anyone can direct me to such.
    Any info you would care to share from personal loads and testing would also be appreciated.

    Regards,
    JWB[/quote]

    Murphy,

    Why wait for spring? If you have info on the 7 x 57AI and the 6.5 X 55AI
    please feel free to send it on. Those are two calibers I have hunted and handloaded for. The .303 AI perks my interest only because I have
    some family history with the old .303 and the idea of getting a 2900 fps
    load out of this caliber intrigues me. I am hoping your info will include a personal assessment and comments, along with the raw data.

    If you care to share, you will find my email access through the forum open.

    PS: On the matter of publication, you will recall, I have a standing request for a personally signed copy of your cartridge handloading book when it comes out. When can we expect to see same?

    Regards, JWB

    Leave a comment:


  • Murphy
    replied
    Published Loads!

    JWB,

    Sooooo....If I'm not published you're not interested.

    Are you looking for a particular caliber? I have 330 different loads for 12 different AI calibers, I don't want to list them all...may take a while. How about a 7x57 AI? A 257 Roberts AI? A 250 Savage AI, a 6.5-06AI, or.....you could wait until it's all published.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrownBear
    replied
    I haven't dug into the volumes to check, but as I recall Ken Waters wrote about some of the AI's in his Pet Load series. When I have more time I'll double check.

    My favorite AI is a 257 Roberts he barreled on a Mauser action for a friend of mine, who subsequently willed it to me. It's comparable to a "long throat" (3" OAL) that RCBS made for me on a Remington 700 action in the 70's while keeping the standard OAL. I've got a Featherweight Ruger 77 in 257 too. Kind of interesting to shoot all of them. When loaded to similar pressures you need a chronograph and a tape measure to find any real difference, and game certainly can't tell.

    Still love that 257 AI, mostly from the sentiment attached to it.

    Leave a comment:


  • JWB
    replied
    Improved cartridge info

    Thanks to all for the good advice.

    My project into the area of improved cartridges is purely research and interest reading at this time.
    There don't seem to be very many published authorities as to loads,
    velocities, findings, etc. Would appreciate if anyone can direct me to such.
    Any info you would care to share from personal loads and testing would also be appreciated.

    Regards,
    JWB

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul H
    replied
    Allen,

    I relise I poorly worded that sentence. Perhaps better said, his work wouldn't be rated as top drawyer or best quality. He was a capable machinist and definately had some inovative ideas.

    Leave a comment:


  • AlleninAlaska
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul H View Post

    I've never knowingly handled an ackley rifle, but from what I've heard from those that have, he wasn't a skilled machinist either.

    Paul I've owned a 450 Magnum as it was called, not 450 Ackley that was made by P.O Ackley in 1962 on the P17 action. It had a SS barrel that was blued by him. Had a hell of an expansion chamber that was mill out of the barrel blank as the barrel was being turned to it's contour. I have yet to ever see another expansion chamber like it anywhere.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul H
    replied
    I'll just echo what the others have set. Your best way to work up loads is to fireform brass, start at top loads from the parent chambering, and work up, though gon't go too far! I've loaded for several improved chamberings, though the the 35 whelen was the only true ackley. You need to realize that not only were guns not accurately pressure tested in the past, most loads weren't chronographed, so velocity claims are suspect at best.

    I've never knowingly handled an ackley rifle, but from what I've heard from those that have, he wasn't a skilled machinist either.

    I think it is best to keep PO Ackley in historical perspective. He was a very active experimentor and tinkerer. His work influenced many, many people. Also you need to keep a perspective on the times. Very few people could afford multiple guns, and there was a large supply of reasonably priced military surplus rifles. So if you wanted to get more performance from your mil surp 30-06, and use the same brass, the ackley improved chamber made alot of sense, even if in reality you gained a mere 50 fps. No one owned chronos so no one was the wiser.

    In simply terms, if you want 30-06 performance, then get one and don't try and make a 303 match it, if you want 300 mag performance, get one, and don't try and make an -06 match it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Murphy
    replied
    Ackley Calibers...

    JWB,

    I have some experience with the various Ackley calibers. I think an even dozen, none to include the 303 British, however. What specifically do you want to know? Do you want load data? Do you want to know more about Mr Ackley? You should get a copy of his two volume set of books, if you don't have them already.

    I will say this if you are not an experienced handloader, these aren't the place to start. Also, if you have found a rifle chambered to an "Ackley improved" I would suggest you pass it by. Most were not made correctly, though the 303, with it's rim wouldn't be so bad with headspace.

    The 303 round was designed to operate at about 45,000 psi. To load that case to 60,000 psi is a mistake. Also, when you straighten the walls of a case in the "improved" calibers it changes the way the case behaves under pressure, changes the signature of the case head and masks the pressure signs we usually have. That 303 case doesn't hold as much powder as the 30-06 and can never give the velocity of it at 30-06 pressures, and 30-06 pressures are 60,000 psi.

    I partcipated in a rather lengthy debate on 24hr about the Ackleys and the other was about 'bolt thrust' with Dr. Oehler. Some of it is informative and some of it is just folks repeating what some one said or wrote.

    Brown bear, I think you comment about him being an excellent machinist and a poor ballistician is right on. He was a bit optimistic in his calculations.

    I almost never open a book which might contain load data, and go to the loads. I read what Ackley had to say and studied the cases and calibers. He did things I would never do, but he didn't have the instrumentation we have today. I view most of those hot loads as mistakes in printing or just slipping a cog here and there. I always considered the load data too old to be of any use today because the powders are obsolete or at the least an old lot which won't have the same characteristics as todays powder. Therefore I don't use data that old. So for me all the Ackleys were brand new territory to explore. I have all this data for 12 different Ackley calibers. Folks ask me for it all the time. I don't mind giving it out but hesitate because of the "cook-bookers", who are looking for a short cut. So many who are detractors of the Ackleys, think the only reason to shoot one is to claim magnum velocities. Not the case for me, each was an experiment. Certainly if it was a quest for more velocity today, and we were making a custom rifle, we could do much better (faster) with any of the new super zapper, ultra boomers.

    They were, for Mr. Ackley, a means of getting additional velocity from a standard case. They did that then and they do that today. We can quibble over how much or how little the gain in velocity is but it is and should be a small increase in velocity without an increase in pressure. For any one who claims that it can't be done at the same pressures, I say he has no experience or knowledge of ballistics or physics. Now it is also true that two rifles of the same caliber, standard calibers can vary in velocity at the same pressures and to a degree greater than one could gain from an Ackley improved. There is no way to predict the velocity gain in any particular caliber (once Ackleyed) and some caibers will certainly show a greater increase in case capacity than others.

    I presently own three different rifles with AI chambers. A 6.5-06AI, a 30-06AI, and 338-06AI. These are not the first I've owned in these calibers but are the best of them. I am going to rebarrel the 6.5 to a standard 6.5-06, and leave the others as they are. The 6.5-06AI has too much case capacity for the 6.5 bore. The 30-06 AI has given some high velocities but it's barrel is perfect. .3080"-.3082" from one end to the other and smooth as a baby's butt. 180's at 2900+ is an easy task. I have owned 5 others that wouldn't do that for various reasons. They are an experiment and something different. They are frowned upon by most handloaders as too much trouble, I don't find that the case.

    Let me know if you want specific notes.

    Leave a comment:

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