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.454 casull bear defense load/bullets

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  • #46
    Originally posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Rearward acceleration of the firearm is directly relative to forward acceleration of the projectile. A faster burning powder will exhibit a steeper pressure curve than a slower burning powder.
    However, to assume that a sharper pressure curve will equal faster acceleration of the projectile and a correspondingly faster recoil, perceived or actual, is not necessarily true.

    Your question is unrealistically oversimplified, and can't really be answered as asked. It's actually a far more complex mechanism with numerous variables at play. The cause/effect relationship in question is not a simple linear one, and it's incorrect to assume that any given powder can be paired with any given bullet. The relationships at play are dynamic and there are many additional variables at play which will effect the outcome. Those values must be identified before tackling the equation(s).
    This pretty much answers my question - a sharper pressure curve doesn't always mean a faster recoil. Thank you.
    Don't want no one to get hurt, but if yore gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by calm seas View Post
      This pretty much answers my question - a sharper pressure curve doesn't always mean a faster recoil. Thank you.
      I think you're wrong but I only have h110 for my 454 so I dont have anything to compare it to

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Chez View Post
        I think you're wrong but I only have h110 for my 454 so I dont have anything to compare it to
        Actual recoil can be calculated, measured, described mathematically. Felt or perceived recoil is highly subjective. The two must be addressed separately and not confused.
        ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
        I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
        The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Chez View Post
          Its not a lighter charge, its less powder.

          In loading your 7mm, your goal with a particular bullet is "x" FPS, right? That means you will be using less of the faster burning powder and more of a slower burning powder while the FPS remain the same.

          In theory the recoil should be the same because the fps is the same but the different burn rates are what is causing the different felt recoil.

          IIRC you are also into archery so think of it this way. if you have one arrow and three 55# bows they should all shoot the arrow at the same fps right? But we know from experience that a 50# longbow will be slower than a 50# recurve which will be slower than a 50# compound. They are all 50# draw weight and shooting the same weight arrow but bow design (powder burn rate) affects the outcome. Bows also have felt recoil which is why many compound shooters use a bow stabilizer to dampen the recoil, its a faster burning "powder" so to speek...
          You lost me, way back there.

          A "lighter charge", meaning LESS powder.

          Recoil is a function of how much WEIGHT leaves the case and barrel. (Bullet and powder) Also, the velocity, and the rifle weight.

          http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

          I already said that when you use a Faster powder, you must use Less than with a Slower powder. Therefore, the recoil is reduced. Velocity depends on the pressure, and the pressure, on how the powder burns. The pressure curve, which can be expressed with a Graph.

          That's about as far as I can go with it.

          I'm not into Archery. It hard enough to bag a Caribou with a gun.

          Smitty of the North
          Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
          Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
          You can't out-give God.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Smitty of the North View Post

            Recoil is a function of how much WEIGHT leaves the case and barrel. (Bullet and powder) Also, the velocity, and the rifle weight.

            Smitty of the North
            Right, but a faster burning powder pushing a bullet 1500fps (handgun) will feel more recoil than a slower burning powder pushing the same bullet the same fps from the same gun.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Chez View Post
              Right, but a faster burning powder pushing a bullet 1500fps (handgun) will feel more recoil than a slower burning powder pushing the same bullet the same fps from the same gun.
              Reeree?

              How can we know that?

              Thanks
              Smitty of the North
              Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
              Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
              You can't out-give God.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Smitty of the North View Post
                Reeree?

                How can we know that?

                Thanks
                Smitty of the North
                It's called "Conservation of Momentum" Smitty and the only contributing factors in the formulas are mass(of gun and bullet) and feets per second. it don't care what kind of powder gets you those feets per second! Faster powders may sound louder but that's about it unless all of the physics articles that I have ever read on the matter are full of poop!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Smitty of the North View Post
                  Reeree?

                  How can we know that?

                  Thanks
                  Smitty of the North
                  Well if I could find someone local willing to share some faster or slower burning powder than H110, that is safe in .454, I'd be willing to work up some loads to test.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Chez View Post
                    Well if I could find someone local willing to share some faster or slower burning powder than H110, that is safe in .454, I'd be willing to work up some loads to test.
                    Thanks Chez:

                    I shall place this hypothesis into my Data Banks for future reference, and until it can be tested for plausibility.

                    Smitty of the North
                    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
                    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
                    You can't out-give God.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Chez View Post
                      Right, but a faster burning powder pushing a bullet 1500fps (handgun) will feel more recoil than a slower burning powder pushing the same bullet the same fps from the same gun.
                      And this is where my non-physics mind goes walk-about. A faster powder has a steeper pressure curve, meaning the bullet achieves desired velocity faster...which means it shoves the gun back faster (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). BUT!! the recoil calculator sez a bullet moving X fps will shove a gun that weighs X pounds backwards at X fps for X ft/lbs of recoil. So, does the speed of the powder have zero influence on the recoil, or is this a 'not always' type situation we find scattered so often through ballistics?
                      And Chez, I will have to look around, see what I have in stock for test stuff as far as powders and bullets.
                      Don't want no one to get hurt, but if yore gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Well, I just went to Smittys link on recoil calculation (thanks for that Smitty), and put in my real 454 loads - 360 gr bullet, 1200 fps, 24 gr powder, and 3.3 lb weapon. Then changed the powder charge ONLY to 7 gr, same bullet and gun weights, same velocity...the calculator sez less recoil. Am I wrong here in thinking 7 gr of powder would be a helluva lot hotter than 24 gr of powder to achieve the same fps?
                        Don't want no one to get hurt, but if yore gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by iofthetaiga
                          Depends on the mass of the bullet and amount of friction presented. Steeper pressure curve, yes. Faster acceleration, not necessarily. You guys seem to be hypothesizing as tho all the relationships and equations involved in the process are linear, and that's simply not the case.
                          Friction and bullet mass wouldn't mean a lot in this discussion for me, because I am thinking about identical bullets from the same weapon. I am aware that a weapon with a 'tight' barrel will kick harder than one with a 'looser' barrel. Had an uncle that had a 30-30 that was tight, kicked like a bay mule. He had my Mom shoot it, and then laughed. She never shot one of his weapons ever again.
                          Don't want no one to get hurt, but if yore gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by calm seas View Post
                            A faster powder has a steeper pressure curve, meaning the bullet achieves desired velocity faster...which means it shoves the gun back faster (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction).
                            Depends on the mass of the bullet and amount of friction presented. Steeper pressure curve, yes. Faster acceleration, not necessarily. You guys seem to be hypothesizing as tho all the relationships and equations involved in the process are linear, and that's simply not the case. Bullet acceleration is the result of thrust generated by pressure. Thrust is resisted by inertia and friction. Inertia and friction are a function of the mass of the object you're attempting to move, and the friction between said object and any medium it's in contact with.
                            ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
                            I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
                            The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by calm seas View Post
                              Friction and bullet mass wouldn't mean a lot in this discussion for me, because I am thinking about identical bullets from the same weapon.
                              You can't just stick any amount of any powder, behind any bullet of any mass, in any chamber of any volume. Again, there's not a single linear relationship at play here. Ignoring or failing to understand even the most basic realities of physics will have consequences, potentially extremely dangerous consequences. Even a hypothetical scenario must comply with real world parameters, otherwise it's pointless.
                              ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
                              I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
                              The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by iofthetaiga View Post
                                You can't just stick any amount of any powder behind any bullet of any mass. Again, there's not a single linear relationship at play here. Ignoring or failing to understand even the most basic realities of physics will have consequences. Even a hypothetical scenario must comply with real world parameters, otherwise it's pointless.
                                I agree wholeheartedly, iott. And I don't want to put just any amount of powder behind any bullet. Within safe parameters, will the same weapon be pushed back faster by an identical bullet over fast powder than slow powder? Smitty's link to that recoil calculator says my thinking is wrong....if I am correct in thinking it takes fewer grains of a fast powder to achieve identical velocities from identical bullets in the same weapon, then there would be less recoil from the same weapon shooting identical bullets at identical velocities, one round loaded with 7gr of X powder, and one round loaded with 24 gr of Y powder.
                                I'll get my reloading manual and check some different powders in real world loads.
                                Don't want no one to get hurt, but if yore gonna have a wreck, I wanna watch.

                                Comment

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