Double Tap Ammo...

[RGL01]

Looks markedly less expensive than other brands. Anyone have experience with it? Thinking that this may swing me back to a Redhawk in .45 Colt as opposed to .44 Magnum., if it is readily available stuff.

[almostfree]

I've shot some of their .45 colt out of a super redhawk. There wasn't really that much difference between it and their .454 casull. If you are thinking of using it in a 4" redhawk, the recoil might be a bit of a shock.

From posts on here and other forums, I would say that you should be aware that you likely will not get the velocities they advertise on their website. That said, it is quality premium ammo and it is generally less expensive than comprable brands.

[RGL01]

Thanks that's what I wanted to know. Was wondering if it was good stuff as they sell 50 rounds for the price of what others are selling 20 rounds.

[Jack49]

Does it go bang? - Yes

Does it perform to claimed specifications - No

I'd trust my handloads over their stuff any day.

When someone sells you something for 50 at the price everyone else sells for 20 there are only a few possibilities.

1) They are getting raw materials cheaper? - Not a chance

2) They are more efficient and therefore produce at a lower cost? - Maybe

3) They are cutting corners that others are not? - Most likely

At the end of the day you get what you pay for. That's my 2 cents, others may differ.

[RGL01]

At the end of the day you get what you pay for. That's my 2 cents, others may differ.

That usually proves true. So tell me, if I start handloading, I assume a chronograph is neccessary. Is it fairly straightfoward to become a competent handloader?

[almostfree]

Jack49 -

After your reply in another thread, I decided to do some research on double tap ammo and their velocity claims. The most reasonable statement that I read concerning this issue stated essentially that your typical consumer chronograph may be precise, but not necessarily accurate. In other words, it may yield consistent but inccorrect results.

Apparently ammunition manufacturers calibrate their industrial grade chronographs to yield the best possible results to them, which is not necessarily dishonest. Those same results may not be repeatable in anything but the most controlled situations. Does this suck? Sure, but it doesn't mean their ammo isn't quality.

I have never had accuracy problems with double tap ammo, and I have shot plenty of it. No, I have not chronographed it, but I'm not sure I would trust the chronograph for anything but making comparisons to other brands anyway. As far as getting 50 rounds for the price of 20, well maybe it has to do with them being a relatively small operation and having less overhead.

I'm not a blind follower of double tap ammo by any means, but so far I haven't had any negative experiences that would lead me to look elsewhere.

[windypoint]

I've shot a fair amount of Double Tap ammo and like it. In my tests the ammunition was very accurate as compared to Winchester white box and while I have not chronographed the ammunition, it is obviously a "hot" load as compared to the target loads. The 357 hard cast is something I can carry with confidence in the woods as a backup.

[RGL01]

Thanks for all the comments. All good information.

[Jack49]

Jack49 -

After your reply in another thread, I decided to do some research on double tap ammo and their velocity claims. The most reasonable statement that I read concerning this issue stated essentially that your typical consumer chronograph may be precise, but not necessarily accurate. In other words, it may yield consistent but inccorrect results.

Apparently ammunition manufacturers calibrate their industrial grade chronographs to yield the best possible results to them, which is not necessarily dishonest. Those same results may not be repeatable in anything but the most controlled situations. Does this suck? Sure, but it doesn't mean their ammo isn't quality.

I have never had accuracy problems with double tap ammo, and I have shot plenty of it. No, I have not chronographed it, but I'm not sure I would trust the chronograph for anything but making comparisons to other brands anyway. As far as getting 50 rounds for the price of 20, well maybe it has to do with them being a relatively small operation and having less overhead.

I'm not a blind follower of double tap ammo by any means, but so far I haven't had any negative experiences that would lead me to look elsewhere.

While it is true that consumer chronographs are not "calibrated" devices. The following is also true. On the same days that the Double Tap loads were tested so were many others. Both hand loads and factory loads from other manufacturers. All of them were reporting within expected velocities. If the chronograph were at fault then the other loads would have been off too.

You see you can calibrate a chronograph yourself by firing loads of known average velocity and seeing how well that relates to what the chronograph is reporting. While it may not be a 99.9% accurate method it is a 95% accurate method and the results for Double Tap fell outside even a 10% margin of error.

Clearly it is not the chronograph to blame but the quality of the Double Tap ammunition. Since you've never chronographed it all you really know is that it goes bang and produces some size group. Velocities could be anywhere and still create this result.

Shooting a few rounds of some ammo, getting a nice group, hearing a big bang and walking away thinking it's all good is the kind of reports you read about this ammo all over the internet. Many people who have actually tested it report similar problems and they are flamed on forums all over for being against Double Tap.

Regarding small size, you can argue that small size results in some efficiency however, small size means that their raw supplies cost more since they cannot get the deals that Remington can on components. These two factors likely negate each other leaving us with the same question of why they are so cheap. Small size also means they they are not doing the QA/QC testing and other manufacturing inspection tasks the bigger players are. They don't have the laboratory facilities or staff to do so. Which is more likely part of the reason for the price difference and the quality difference.

In any case I've reported my observations. Anyone who wants to use their stuff is certainly welcome to. As I said, it's my 2 cents and you are free to differ.

[Jack49]

That usually proves true. So tell me, if I start handloading, I assume a chronograph is neccessary. Is it fairly straightfoward to become a competent handloader?

Handloading is certainly not hard. There are plenty of resources on the net to read plus the major loading manuals give you everything you need to know to get started. I handloaded for 25 years before getting my first chronograph a few years ago. So it's certainly not essential. But it does provide a lot of information. For example you come up with a load that exibits very high velocity. That's a instant clue that you might be loading it too hot. In the old days you were looking at primer pockets and case expansion, still good to do, but the added data point is very useful.

Also, knowing what the ammo is doing instead of guessing certianly is a positive thing. Walking around with ammo you think is at 41 magnum levels when it is actually performoing at 45 ACP levels is a nice piece of information to have.

[RGL01]

Thanks Jack. Time to start looking more seriously into getting started.

[chriso]

Walking around with ammo you think is at 41 magnum levels when it is actually performing at 45 ACP levels is a nice piece of information to have.

So aside from becoming a handloader myself (I imagine that would be your first recommendation, but unlikely in my life at this time) whose brand of higher performing 10mm would you recommend? Buffalo Bore looks tempting, but there is a thread about them on the forum here that causes concern. Cor-bon has been reliable in my past, but they arent loading nearly as hot as Double Tap and Buffalo Bore claim to. Is there any other options you are aware of? Thanks, Chris

[Jack49]

So aside from becoming a handloader myself (I imagine that would be your first recommendation, but unlikely in my life at this time) whose brand of higher performing 10mm would you recommend? Buffalo Bore looks tempting, but there is a thread about them on the forum here that causes concern. Cor-bon has been reliable in my past, but they arent loading nearly as hot as Double Tap and Buffalo Bore claim to. Is there any other options you are aware of? Thanks, Chris

I recommend you spend $100 on a chronograph, buy whatever ammo you want to test and see for yourself what the best load is for you. That way you know what you are carrying right down to the box you bought. No hype, no testimonials just cold hard facts.

However, I have tested the following and this is what I got. Keep in mind that a different lot produced at a different time may not perform the same. In fact lot to lot consistency might be part of the problem with the smaller manufacturers where some people see good results and other times they do not.

Buffalo Bore 200 FMJ 10mm - 1150 fps average

Cor Bon 200 JFP - 1060 fps average

Double Tap 200 LFP - 1040 average

Double Tap 230 LFP - 935 average

Winchester Silvertip 175 - 1250 average

200 g XTP Handload 10.3 N105 - 1200 fps average

180 g Gold Dot handload 11.6 3N38 1380 fps average

(Obviously the hand loads are max in my Glock with KKM barrel and should not be replicated without working up)

[almostfree]

Good info. What kind of springs do you use on your G20? I've been told that the standard weight Glock spring should be replaced. I currently have a 22# wolff spring and guide rod on mine.

Any suggestions for a chronograph? It looks like the CED units can be had from $75 on up.

[Jack49]

Good info. What kind of springs do you use on your G20? I've been told that the standard weight Glock spring should be replaced. I currently have a 22# wolff spring and guide rod on mine.

Any suggestions for a chronograph? It looks like the CED units can be had from $75 on up.

I use the stock springs, I don't like anything that changes the timing of the gun. I've shot a lot of hot rounds through it and never had a problem. I do replace the stock springs with new stock springs every couple of years. With very hot handloads I think the aftermarket barrel is a nice safety precaution. For anything factory produced I don't think it matters.

I have used Chrony and Pact chronographs. They both worked fine. I'd bet all the major brands are quite functional.