Is 10mm auto enough ??

[tammons]

For the big critters.
I know this has been asked a lot before, but thought I would start a new thread.

I now live in the lower 48 and use a 10mm auto for hog hunting.

I am working on some new loads, 6" bbl, 200 gr hardcast over 800-x that should
be at about 800-850+ FPE. Might work up some 220 grainers too.

In a few years hopefully I will be moving to AK and want something for 4 legged protection while hunting. I had a 460V, but it was just too big and heavy to schlep around so I sold it. Very nice gun though. It was an overkill for anything down here anyway.

When I get ready to move, I could also just pick up a 454 casull, like the 2" bbl ruger or maybe a 4-5" barreled 454 but again heavy.

At any rate a 10mm auto is a lot lighter and I could probably get off 2 shots by the time I recover from one shot from a 2" bbl casull, but If I only had one shot I would take the casull.

Thanks in advance

[tvfinak]

Best bang for the weight

If you fish you will find a handgun for protection is a must in many places as the fish that attract people are also very popular with bears. When hunting you will at least have a rifle with you.

Weight is always an issue - if a gun is too heavy you simply will end up not carrying it. If carrying the gun requires strapping on a belt and holster everytime you step off the pavement or away from the campsite odds are you will get surprised and not have the pistol with you when you need it.

For a powerfull dependable lightweight pistol there is just no equal to the S&W 329 PD. The weight of mine unloaded with the rubber grips is only 24.8 oz. I shoot 315 gr. hard cast lead bullets out of mine that should have a pretty fair chance of stopping a bear, moose, or other varmit. A .454 is better but the weight and bulk is much more. I can easily drop my 329 PD in a lightweight jacket pocket of in the hip pocket of my jeans but I need to get a nylon clip on holster.

The 4" barrel is a little short for hunting but you can get some practice with it before you move up. The 240 gr bullets should work fine on anything down there but most people up here prefer the heavier bullets as penetration is more important than expansion on our larger animals.

For the big critters.
I know this has been asked a lot before, but thought I would start a new thread.

I now live in the lower 48 and use a 10mm auto for hog hunting.

I am working on some new loads, 6" bbl, 200 gr hardcast over 800-x that should
be at about 800-850+ FPE. Might work up some 220 grainers too.

In a few years hopefully I will be moving to AK and want something for 4 legged protection while hunting. I had a 460V, but it was just too big and heavy to schlep around so I sold it. Very nice gun though. It was an overkill for anything down here anyway.

When I get ready to move, I could also just pick up a 454 casull, like the 2" bbl ruger or maybe a 4-5" barreled 454 but again heavy.

At any rate a 10mm auto is a lot lighter and I could probably get off 2 shots by the time I recover from one shot from a 2" bbl casull, but If I only had one shot I would take the casull.

Thanks in advance

[tammons]

Yep, that is a nice revolver and I have looked at them.

Certainly an option and I used to own a Taurus Tracker in 44mag that weighed 34oz
So I know I can handle the recoil.

Generally the 10mm loaded with 200-220 gr bullets hot with a 6" barrel should produce about
850 FPE vs a 44 mag, 4" BBL 255 grainer at 1300 fps with around 950-1000 FPE.

Big enough difference so I guess the rest would come down to penetration, which I would guess
that they should be fairly close as far as penetration with hardcast with an edge to the 44 mag.

Still the 44mag would be better.

The 454 casull Alaskan weighs 44 oz or about 10 oz more than my old tracker 44 so not that bad
as far as a belt carry, but with the 2" bbl you take a big hit in FPS.

A 300 grainer at 1200 fps out of a 2" bbl is running at 960 fpe, so not much better IMO than a 44mag
with a 4" bbl except a bigger bullet and a ***** load of recoil.

A 5" bbl 454 casull is better in exterior ballistics but at 51oz is getting up there again into a pants dragger.

Thanks

[tvfinak]

big and heavy

Once you get into the pants dragger catagory - i.e. your need a holster and belt - I figure I might as well go to my 4" .500 S&W. Like the 329 PD the 4" .500 is in a class of its own - extremely powerful yet still small enough to carry in a shoulder holster. Like the 329 PD it isn't good for much other than personal protection but I figure they are cheap insurance against getting chewed or stomped in the woods.

A 4" Ruger Redhawk in .454 would be nice but they Ruger doesn't make them. Some people put them together using two guns but they aren't cheap to assemble and there must be some very good reason Ruger doesn't market them - like the 329 PD they would fill a special nitch for a powerful lighter weight gun.

Yep, that is a nice revolver and I have looked at them.

Certainly an option and I used to own a Taurus Tracker in 44mag that weighed 34oz
So I know I can handle the recoil.

Generally the 10mm loaded with 200-220 gr bullets hot with a 6" barrel should produce about
850 FPE vs a 44 mag, 4" BBL 255 grainer at 1300 fps with around 950-1000 FPE.

Big enough difference so I guess the rest would come down to penetration, which I would guess
that they should be fairly close as far as penetration with hardcast with an edge to the 44 mag.

Still the 44mag would be better.

The 454 casull Alaskan weighs 44 oz or about 10 oz more than my old tracker 44 so not that bad
as far as a belt carry, but with the 2" bbl you take a big hit in FPS.

A 300 grainer at 1200 fps out of a 2" bbl is running at 960 fpe, so not much better IMO than a 44mag
with a 4" bbl except a bigger bullet and a ***** load of recoil.

A 5" bbl 454 casull is better in exterior ballistics but at 51oz is getting up there again into a pants dragger.

Thanks

[ADfields]

Bear can move at 35mph and reach that speed like a top fuel dragster . . . I saw a 400+ pound Griz out run and out corner a rabbit. So in a DLP (defense of life or property) situation where the bear is inside 30 yards you will have something like 2 seconds to compute that its actually charging and shoot! Now with your own water filling your boot and blood pressure at “good lord-over-I’m gonna die” how many well aimed shots can you get off at a moving basket ball size target? Most figure one or two is it before it is on you.

So, I figure every one better be powerful enough to do the job. You will be shooting at the thickest bone at an angle that likes to deflect things, need power and heavy/solid enough bullet to get in there. If you miss a little left or right you are in the shoulder and need enough to smash heavy bone after it penetrated all the stuff to get there. Miss high and you’re in the neck/back and need power to sever it. Miss low and your SOL.

Will a 10mm do the dead on a brown bear . . . I think maybe it would but I don’t want a maybe so for me 41mag/44mag/45 Colt with good load and bullet is minimum. Take the brown bear encounter out of it and I’d feel just fine with my 10mm. I know 10mm will stop a moose, black bear, or crazy people just fine and moose are the bigger threat here anyway.

So when you get here just do like all the rest of us do, make the choice that you think fits you best. Nobody actually knows if 10mm is enough, or 500S&W is too much, so it’s a personal choice you get to make and live with.

[rbuck351]

I don't believe that FPE has a whole lot to do with how effective a hand gun round is for DLP against lg bear.I think about 1000fps to be about minimum with a 300+gr bullet with 1200/1300 being better. I don't think velocity really makes up for lack of bullet weight. I believe 250grs to be about minimum on bullet wieght. So a 250gr at 1000fps probably would work with a good hit. My carry load is 270gr at 1200fps and although it's not in the 454 class it's not 454 weight either. My gun, a 41mag, will shoot a 225gr cast at 1480fps, but I don't think that load will be as effective as the heavier slower load even though the FPE is probably higher. Is the 10mm enough? I don't really know, but if thats what I was carrying, I would load the heaviest flat nose bullet I could get to feed reliably and try to get it to 1100fps. To me, big bears are like tanks. A lot of little bullets don't do much but one big one can stop them in their tracks. If I had a 4" or 5" M29 S&W, It would be my carry gun with 300gr+ at what ever I could push them to. What ever you use, it has to be something you will be wearing when you need it.

[Murphy]

I don't believe that FPE has a whole lot to do with how effective a hand gun round is for DLP against lg bear.I think about 1000fps to be about minimum with a 300+gr bullet with 1200/1300 being better. I don't think velocity really makes up for lack of bullet weight. I believe 250grs to be about minimum on bullet wieght. So a 250gr at 1000fps probably would work with a good hit. My carry load is 270gr at 1200fps and although it's not in the 454 class it's not 454 weight either. My gun, a 41mag, will shoot a 225gr cast at 1480fps, but I don't think that load will be as effective as the heavier slower load even though the FPE is probably higher. Is the 10mm enough? I don't really know, but if thats what I was carrying, I would load the heaviest flat nose bullet I could get to feed reliably and try to get it to 1100fps. To me, big bears are like tanks. A lot of little bullets don't do much but one big one can stop them in their tracks. If I had a 4" or 5" M29 S&W, It would be my carry gun with 300gr+ at what ever I could push them to. What ever you use, it has to be something you will be wearing when you need it.

Well said.

[tvfinak]

Lightest minimum pistol

I was testing some loads with my 4" 329 PD this weekend and found I can drive a 315 gr bullet at around 1100 fps. That is with a 24.8 oz pistol (unloaded). That is the load I'll be carrying until I find something better but I don't expect to improve things much. Remember that this is with a pistol you can easily drop in your pocket - the odds of having it with you when you need it are vastly increased. I do need to pick up a nylon holster for it I can easily clip on my belt when I am more lightly dressed.

At the other end of the range I can drive a 440 gr bullet to over 1300 fps or a 500 gr to around 1200 fps with my 4" .500. But like many heavy guns I have to put on a holster to wear it so the odds of having it with me are significantly decreased.

I don't believe that FPE has a whole lot to do with how effective a hand gun round is for DLP against lg bear.I think about 1000fps to be about minimum with a 300+gr bullet with 1200/1300 being better. I don't think velocity really makes up for lack of bullet weight. I believe 250grs to be about minimum on bullet wieght. So a 250gr at 1000fps probably would work with a good hit. My carry load is 270gr at 1200fps and although it's not in the 454 class it's not 454 weight either. My gun, a 41mag, will shoot a 225gr cast at 1480fps, but I don't think that load will be as effective as the heavier slower load even though the FPE is probably higher. Is the 10mm enough? I don't really know, but if thats what I was carrying, I would load the heaviest flat nose bullet I could get to feed reliably and try to get it to 1100fps. To me, big bears are like tanks. A lot of little bullets don't do much but one big one can stop them in their tracks. If I had a 4" or 5" M29 S&W, It would be my carry gun with 300gr+ at what ever I could push them to. What ever you use, it has to be something you will be wearing when you need it.

[rbuck351]

Tvfinak
To me the 329PD would be pretty close to ideal. Enough punch and small and light enough to carry easily. Wish I had one.

[Father of 2]

If we are worried about bears why are we carrying handguns? How many of us have shot a bear with a handgun to know what works or not? Was the bear upset or was it a hunting situation? Ballistics and bullet theories change almost monthly it seems. Many are experts yet is it because of writers, advertisers, or real life knowledge?

Why I carry a pistol is for the simple reason that it gets my wife into the outdoors. I hate carrying a rifle when I don't hunt and she wants a gun on me when she is hiking or camping with me. I started carrying my sons 30-30 for ease of packing it over my overpowered rifle and then she bought me a pistol to carry so I would be more comfortable. She has as much knowledge of what I could do in a bear situation with it as I do, but it makes her comfortable. She was even comfortable if I carried a 2.5 inch 38 special(humans are more of a threat in my mind) but she was a sweetheart so she bought me a ----- for crummy humans and bears. Does it matter what she bought me? The truth is even I, who has not carried in 15 years while not hunting, feels better with my ---- on my hip. She feels better and goes everywhere with me.

I will classify that I carry my overpowered rifle in high human use non bear hunted areas.


FWIW Dan

[Matt]

It's all about the construction of the bullet...

[Murphy]

It's all about the construction of the bullet...

Well......No it is much more than that. Your statement says disregard caliber, bullet weight, energy, velocity.

I don't think that's what you meant but it looks that way. Bullet construction, even hypothetically speaking, cannot make a 10MM pistol into something that it isn't. I don't think the jury is "in" on the subject of 10 MM as a Bear DLP cartridge, I am sure with a perfect shot and the perfect bullet we could put one into the brain of a grizzly but......That isn't likely to happen soon.

We do know what the larger caliber heavier hard cast LBT style bullets will do to a bear carcass, that isn't a myth. We need to look at 10 MM as a hunting cartridge. I've only taken white tailed deer and coyotes with the 10 MM. I've used the 200 and 210 grain hard cast LBT style bullets on deer and (from a 6" revolver) and they did do the job. I can't say to the equal of 41 mag but the worked. No where near the effect of the 44 Mag with heavier bullets. (250 to 300 grain) But is in all cases is about more than just bullet construction.

[alaskabliss]

Last year a guy on this forum tested his 10mm on a black bear. It was in fact a hunting situation but none the less it killed that bear with one shot. If I am in an area that I am concerned with bears then I will carry a side arm and the short shotgun. Is it heavy? yes it is. Will it cover my needs when a bear wants to tangle? Very much so. The side arm is for those moments when the shotgun is not in my hands and is the last line of defense. I never want to get to that point but I am prepared if need be.

[Lowrider]

Just remember a 22 short will kill a 1200 pound steer....all you gotta do is get it thru the hide and bone. A well placed solid, heavy for caliber bullet at mid-range or moderate velocity will do the trick. I'd rather have a solid hard 147 gr 9mm in the brain pan than a .44/.454/.500 hollow point splatered on the skull.

It IS about bullet construction when you want penetration. High velocity just creates more recoil and makes it harder to shoot the gun accurately. Hard heavy bullets at moderate velocity penetrate....simple as that. That's why a .45-70 with a hard heavy bullet will shoot thru a 5' long buffalo.

I used to think I could learn how to fly fish with a Sako .375 H&H carbine over my shoulder...I couldn't so I went with a 5" Super Blackhawk shooting 310 gr linotype bullets. That was 25 years ago and I still think it is the right answer.

Will a 10mm work? Yip...HARD 200 gr at 1000 fps oughta do just fine if you can put it where it needs to be to kill whatever is after you.

[Wildalaska]

I met a person who killed a charging griz with a 10mm using HSM 180 FMJs. While he didnt get hurt, He bought a shotgun for his next trip.