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  • #31
    Just to clarify for anyone who is interested in what this actual plan covers, this ain't your fathers tailing dam. The tailings dams that have failed and are being compared to this proposed project are not the same at all. The dam failures were water-inundated whereas the tailings storage facility for this project has a permeable flow-through design with flattened slopes that increase static safety. According to the Project Description document linked to above, "The TSFs will be designed to meet or exceed the standards of the updated 2017 Guidelines for Cooperation with the Alaska Dam Safety Program (ADSP) prepared by ADNR. The TSFs will be designed to the standards of a Class I hazard potential dam (the highest classification)."

    The Pebble Project has probably been the most scrutinized mine project ever and they have taken lessons learned from past failures to come up with a plan that is reasonable and sound.
    “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman

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    • #32
      Let me ask you something.... If you lived in the location of the proposed mine, raising a family, in a beautiful house, wildlife all around, would you want it built in your backyard? Have you ever even been to this place? I have many times. As smokeross said It's a beautiful place and he would hate to see it torn up. And tore up it would be. And once they are gone, and the money made, not likely to return to it's original state, if ever, your years and years.

      This whole thing is a matter of perspective. It's a shift in values. Too many people just don't value a way of life, a precious resource, or the beauty of some of the last remaining wildernesses on Earth. If they did they wouldn't think of risking it. They place more value on something you can hold in your hand, a greenback that can float away on a breeze just as fast as it was created, opposed to something that is solid, giving, and has been in place nearly since time began.

      As I have said before I am not an environmentalist bunny hugger extremist. And I was actually in favor of this mine until I looked into it. Albeit all the triumphs and successes man has made since the industrial revolution, he still has quite a reputation of screwing up. Sorry folks, not here....just too big of a risk to take despite their "highest classification."

      If Teddy Roosevelt were still here, one of the most beloved presidents ever, this whole thing would be a moot point as it never would have even been a consideration. Too bad we don't have more people in high places with higher values these days.
      Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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      • #33
        Nobody lives in the proposed mining area.

        I have been to the area, I commercial fished the Bay for years. Most who are opposed to this proposed mine have no idea where it is or even what is proposed, some even claim that it could kill all the salmon in the entirety of the Bay. That's just plain ignorant.

        The mine site is more than 100 miles as the crow flies from the Bay, and over 200 river miles. It's about the same distance from Dillingham to the mine site as it is to Homer and Anchor Point, Kenai is only 30 more miles away from the mine site than Dillingham, and Anchorage is only 80 miles further away that Dillingham.

        I don't like the roads I use to get to my house or the town I have to go through to get there, but my house wouldn't be where it is if it weren't for those things. We can outsource our jobs and mining to areas of the world with less oversight and we can pay top dollar to do so, but if we really care about our environment we would demand every mine everywhere be built to the specifications that this proposed mine be built to.
        “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post
          Nobody lives in the proposed mining area..
          I realize that. It was a hypothetical question which I think you knew but chose to ignore. I ask it to anybody that thinks this mine would be so great to have....would they want it in their own backyard if need be. Meaning, even if you stood to make a lot of money from it, would you appreciate living right next to it, or even better, just downstream from it?

          Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post
          I have been to the area, I commercial fished the Bay for years. Most who are opposed to this proposed mine have no idea where it is or even what is proposed,
          I asked if you had ever been there, set foot on the location, not in the bay below it. So then, seeing that you fished the bay for years, and now that you're done taking from it's bounty, you don't mind what may or may not happen to it. To a lot of people that's the same thought process of Pebble.

          Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post
          The mine site is more than 100 miles as the crow flies from the Bay, and over 200 river miles.
          Again, I know where the mine is purposed to be. I'm pretty sure you're aware of how far the fish move upstream to spawn. The distance away from the mine wouldn't matter should the fish be there if the dam fails.

          Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post
          We can outsource our jobs and mining to areas of the world with less oversight and we can pay top dollar to do so, but if we really care about our environment we would demand every mine everywhere be built to the specifications that this proposed mine be built to.
          No, we really don't HAVE to outsource our jobs and mining to other places in the world. You can't tell me that in all the vastness of Alaska, there aren't other areas that hold riches in the ground with far less risk. But, of course I realize that it might cost more to mine there, so it may not be quite as "profitable" as these companies would prefer. Oh well, sorry folks, it's the nature of the beast. Best change professions if you think you can go anywhere to rape the land and threaten precious natural resources anywhere it suits you.

          I have to wonder how far a mine of this scale would get should it be purposed at the headwaters of the Kenai? What? It wouldn't even be a consideration? Well this should be no different. But for some, I guess "outta place, outta mind," seems to be a different story...
          Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

          Comment


          • #35
            Every single mining waste storage facility leaks. Every single one. As an example of the effectiveness of "state of the art" tailing storage, Red Dog Mine tailings storage currently leaks at a rate of about 1000 gallons per minute. 4 of the 5 biggest mines in AK have not been able to contain 100% of their leakage. Currently the 5 biggest mines in AK trigger hundreds of environmental citations yearly. Every single one has had at least one "major" spill.

            These facilities will need to be managed forever. I repeat - FOREVER.

            Anyone who believes Pebble will not contaminate the surrounding area and watershed is simply living in la-la land and is overtly ignoring reality. The history of mining clearly shows that it is a matter of when contamination happens, not if.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post
              Nobody lives in the proposed mining area.
              And that is relevant how? The ecological impact of the mine is the overriding issue, not some conjured up NIMBY straw man.

              I have been to the area, I commercial fished the Bay for years. Most who are opposed to this proposed mine have no idea where it is or even what is proposed, some even claim that it could kill all the salmon in the entirety of the Bay. That's just plain ignorant.
              I have been to Frying Pan Lake, and floated the Koktuli a number of times. Most who oppose blood diamonds have not been to Africa, so your weak sauce second straw man is equally irrelevant.
              Oh, so what’s an acceptable percentage of the Bay Run destroyed, livelihoods lost, and cultures inexorably altered in your myopic world?
              Talk about ignorance....

              The mine site is more than 100 miles as the crow flies from the Bay, and over 200 river miles. It's about the same distance from Dillingham to the mine site as it is to Homer and Anchor Point, Kenai is only 30 more miles away from the mine site than Dillingham, and Anchorage is only 80 miles further away that Dillingham.
              Yes, 100 miles from the Bay. At the literal headwaters of the Nushagak. Perhaps you’re not aware how river drainages function. See, if you leach toxins into the headwaters, it flows downstream towards the sea. In this case from the Koktuli, to the Mulchatna, and then the Nushagak. Salmon, in case you are as ill versed on their migratory routes, swim from the Sea and disburse throughout the system, all the way to the headwaters. I’m happy to see you know how many miles are involved, thank goodness for Google I suppose.

              I don't like the roads I use to get to my house or the town I have to go through to get there, but my house wouldn't be where it is if it weren't for those things.
              Straw man, number 3. And a piss poor analogy to boot.

              We can outsource our jobs and mining to areas of the world with less oversight and we can pay top dollar to do so, but if we really care about our environment we would demand every mine everywhere be built to the specifications that this proposed mine be built to.
              What a ridiculous statement, and given your previous pablum, that’s notable.

              The specifications of this mine are so abhorrently crappy that it took the revocation of the Clean Water Act, the gutting of the EPA, and the overt influence of an equally crappy administration to ramrod it through a sham of a process.
              “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
              "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

              Comment


              • #37
                I'm not even going to comment. This conversation has gone to **** in a hand basket.
                Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Doug in Alaska View Post
                  I'm not even going to comment. This conversation has gone to **** in a hand basket.
                  Some people would rather jump up and down while shouting than have an actual honest conversation.
                  “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post

                    Some people would rather jump up and down while shouting than have an actual honest conversation.
                    Yes. You would.

                    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
                    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      As the saying goes, throw a stone into a pack of dogs...

                      And yes, I would rather have an actual conversation than the jumping up and down while shouting. Care to join me?
                      “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post
                        As the saying goes, throw a stone into a pack of dogs...

                        And yes, I would rather have an actual conversation than the jumping up and down while shouting. Care to join me?
                        Join you? In jumping up and down with straw man arguments and obfuscation? Nah. I’m good.
                        It’s readily apparent that your breadth of knowledge concerning Pebble wouldn’t fill a shot glass.
                        “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
                        "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I've been hearing about Pebble since I moved to AK in 08. Didn't really have an opinion either way, but some good info came out in this thread. I'm seeing both sides now, and why it's such a debate.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by AlaskaHippie View Post

                            Join you? In jumping up and down with straw man arguments and obfuscation? Nah. I’m good.
                            It’s readily apparent that your breadth of knowledge concerning Pebble wouldn’t fill a shot glass.

                            Hahaha, so then I will take that as a no.

                            Ever heard of ad hominem attacks? Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a term that refers to several types of arguments, most of which are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a diversion to some irrelevant but often highly charged issue.
                            Last edited by Patsfan54; 08-04-2020, 06:22.
                            “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post
                              Just to clarify for anyone who is interested in what this actual plan covers, this ain't your fathers tailing dam. The tailings dams that have failed and are being compared to this proposed project are not the same at all. The dam failures were water-inundated whereas the tailings storage facility for this project has a permeable flow-through design with flattened slopes that increase static safety. According to the Project Description document linked to above, "The TSFs will be designed to meet or exceed the standards of the updated 2017 Guidelines for Cooperation with the Alaska Dam Safety Program (ADSP) prepared by ADNR. The TSFs will be designed to the standards of a Class I hazard potential dam (the highest classification)."

                              The Pebble Project has probably been the most scrutinized mine project ever and they have taken lessons learned from past failures to come up with a plan that is reasonable and sound.

                              Turns out not all tailings dams fail, even in highly seismic areas. The Las Tortolas tailings storage facility went through an earthquake in 2010 without failing, apparently that TSF is similar in design to the one proposed for this project. The earthquake was 8.8
                              “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Physicist ― Richard Feynman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Patsfan54 View Post


                                Turns out not all tailings dams fail, even in highly seismic areas. The Las Tortolas tailings storage facility went through an earthquake in 2010 without failing, apparently that TSF is similar in design to the one proposed for this project. The earthquake was 8.8
                                But would it have held in an 8.9 mag or higher? More importantly, is it located above the greatest sockeye fishery in the world? If the mine was to be built, would you be confident that it would? Just what part of "one of the greatest natural resources in the world" do you not understand? Sorry, but it just boggles the mind that mankind would even consider taking any kind of risk which could threaten such an epic part of nature. But hey, that's just me I guess. Well, then again, I see what going on in the world today and I guess it doesn't really surprise me.....unfortunately.
                                Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

                                Comment

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