New State Concessions hunting lands public announcement

[AVALANCHE]

Big Game Commercial Services Board

Category: Agency Meetings
Department: Commerce Community & Economic Development
Publish Date: 02/13/2009
Location: Teleconference
Coastal District: N/A

Body of Notice:

BIG GAME COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD. The Board will hold teleconferences from 10:00-11:00 a.m. on 2/19/09, & 3/5/09 for the purpose of reconvening the State Lands subcommittee. Individuals interested in additional information may call (907) 465-2543.
Revision History:

[anonymous1]

Give em candy

Thanks for keeping us posted AV
Man this whole thing is just a little overwhelmingly scarey. I`ve tried to read up on it to understand what it all means and in my simple mind it boils down a privatization scheme akin to whats happened to our fishery resources.
I guess I just don`t see how it can be good for private property rights or Joe hunter. When kids fight over toys or candy you either take it all away or give em both some. Is that whats happening here between guides and transporters.

[AVALANCHE]

Thanks for keeping us posted AV
Man this whole thing is just a little overwhelmingly scarey. I`ve tried to read up on it to understand what it all means and in my simple mind it boils down a privatization scheme akin to whats happened to our fishery resources.
I guess I just don`t see how it can be good for private property rights or Joe hunter. When kids fight over toys or candy you either take it all away or give em both some. Is that whats happening here between guides and transporters.

A1~
Your not alone. No one is talking much about this publicly that's why this meeting notice might be a good thing.

Maybe a few joe-six pak hunters will show up or call in?

Get some people besides a few guides asking questions...OH and make sure to get the answers in writing.

Questions and responses in writing should start clearing the fog of what the Alaska Professional Hunters really has in mind for the good ol boys club...

It doesn't appear to me transporters care much one way or the other...could be wrong though.

[BRWNBR]

THis whole concession deal will frickin' rock for resident hunters!! limiting the amount of guides in every area will open up areas for less pressured hunting like never before. I'd think every joe resident hunter would be pushing hard for this to go thru.
Transporters are keeping their mouths shut for the same reason, less guides more runways and access areas to drop people. They should starting looking at their operating plan caus their next for the limited access. Only so much alaska and only so much usable alaska.

This is a weird deal for guiding, if they do it right it could be very good, if they do it wrong and peddle to much to the APHA it could get very very bad and never even happen due to apeals from everyone who lost their jobs.
Bottom line, something gotta be done. either limit the number of clients each guide can take...which would be pointless, then no one can make any money.
Or limit the number of guides that can use an area.
No matter what this idea ain't gonna get swallowed very well. Bottom line for me as a guide is this...
i may loose my job..but this going thru will create better opportunities for my kids and their kids by easing hunting pressure from the guiding end of things. I care more about that than my job. i can loose my job, but don't plan on loosing my kids.

Didn't the state used to have some sort of guide concession system in the past .... aka "exclusive guide use areas" or something like that? Will this be "more or less" the same thing?

[Chisana]

THis whole concession deal will frickin' rock for resident hunters!! limiting the amount of guides in every area will open up areas for less pressured hunting like never before. I'd think every joe resident hunter would be pushing hard for this to go thru.

I agree it could be very good for resident hunters or we could end up with situations similar to those that exist in the Wrangells where the transporters will not take resident hunters in because they have arrangements with guides who have exclusive areas on federal lands.

Could go either way since we don't see this problem in all areas with exclusive guide areas.

[BRWNBR]

the reason we don't see the trasnporter/guide realtionship problem in the other exclusive guide use areas is because of one word....SHEEP. thats it plain and simple. people place sheep on such a high pedistal that just about anything will be done to protect "their" areas, residents included.
Most guides that those transporters are protecting are taking out over or close to two dozen sheep clients a year....otherwise if they were only looking for 10 sheep they wouldn't care so much of joe resident came out and shot a half dozen.
Build a big lodge, then figure out how to fund it....ohhh looky sheep. Build a small outfitt and go easy on the resource and still have a working relationship with joe resdient hunter...go big means stakin' out your claim so to speak...to bad.

[AVALANCHE]

limiting the amount of guides in every area will open up areas for less pressured hunting like never before.

How is this program going to 'limit' the total number of guides?

It appears as if it is just going to move guides around.

Maybe you mean it will put a bunch of guides out of business and make big box guide business out of others.

What is in the provisions of these special interest contracts that is going to prevent a guide who owns the concession from just ramping up his business and hiring a bunch of assistant guides to take the place of the guides that have been displaced in what is now...'his' area??

I'd think every joe resident hunter would be pushing hard for this to go thru. Transporters are keeping their mouths shut for the same reason, less guides more runways and access areas to drop people.

I been hearing different.

Transporters and joe-six pack hunters are working with DNR to include those with a transporter license as eligible bidders for these concessions.

There is no justification that only guides have exclusive and joint use concessions.

Transporters and joe-six pack are interested in bidding on these areas and makeing them no-guide areas. And no other transporters can get in either.

Then when joe-six pack books a flight into that area he knows only the transporter who owns the area will be dropping joe's off and no guides in the area.

That is what I hear joe hunter and transporters are pushing for.

[BRWNBR]

"How is this program going to 'limit' the total number of guides?"

...Currently the way the new maps are drawn up they have a number in each new concession for the number of guides that will be given a permit to operate there...example, unit 17 currently has almost 25 guides registered for the area, under the new concession it will only allow 4 i belive to operate there.

"It appears as if it is just going to move guides around."
...ummm no.

"Maybe you mean it will put a bunch of guides out of business and make big box guide business out of others."

...This big box was a concern, but the way they are working up the prospectus will include a business plan on how many clients each guide is trying to take per year, and they are trying to avoid raping and area just for the sake of letting one guy do it. They are trying to work it so the renewable resource actually gets renewed.

"What is in the provisions of these special interest contracts that is going to prevent a guide who owns the concession from just ramping up his business and hiring a bunch of assistant guides to take the place of the guides that have been displaced in what is now...'his' area??"

...covered this is the above....

"Transporters and joe-six pack hunters are working with DNR to include those with a transporter license as eligible bidders for these concessions."

...for the 10,000th time THERE ARE NO BIDDERS!!! geez no one seems to be able to let this rumor die.

"There is no justification that only guides have exclusive and joint use concessions."

...apparently there is to the people who have the responsiblity of managing these lands.

"Transporters and joe-six pack are interested in bidding on these areas and makeing them no-guide areas. And no other transporters can get in either.":

...I haven't heard anything of transporters being inluded in a GUIDE concession. You have to have a guiding business to apply for a permit, or be awarded one.

"Then when joe-six pack books a flight into that area he knows only the transporter who owns the area will be dropping joe's off and no guides in the area."

...You can't OWN an area, as you cannot sell it. it will be awarded to people and can be revoked if need be.

"That is what I hear joe hunter and transporters are pushing for."
....they ain't pushing very hard if they are.

what grapevine are you getting your info from? be curious to see some of it.
Avalanche..you gonna be at the BGCSB meeting in fairbanks?
where you at the anchorage one?

[muskeg]

Also the State can now regulate the non-alaska-resident hunting Guide ..... leagley

Resident Guides will get more points ..... the Guides with the highest points (in the end) wins ..... or gets the Bid ....

Maybe that's where everyon thinks that it is a Bid ... It is patterned after the USFS prospectus BID system ... It's only in the name ...

The USFS does have another Bid type system of awarding Use Days or Areas where the highest $ bidder get the Days or Areas ...

[AVALANCHE]

...Currently the way the new maps are drawn up they have a number in each new concession for the number of guides that will be given a permit to operate there...example, unit 17 currently has almost 25 guides registered for the area, under the new concession it will only allow 4 i belive to operate there.

So the other 21 guides are out of business or they will move into some other area? It has to be one or the other so which is it?

Special interest group are dividing up the state and giving concessions to selected guides? Smells like Osichek all over again.

...This big box was a concern, but the way they are working up the prospectus will include a business plan on how many clients each guide is trying to take per year, and they are trying to avoid raping and area just for the sake of letting one guy do it. They are trying to work it so the renewable resource actually gets renewed.

Have you seen ANY official document on any of this stuff besides a map or is it all just rehtoric coming out of APHA through DNR and BGCSB?

What prospectus are you talking about? Who wrote it?

...for the 10,000th time THERE ARE NO BIDDERS!!! geez no one seems to be able to let this rumor die.

No bidders....so this program is going to costing the people of this state hundreds of thousands of dollars to design, implement and it will come with very significant annual administrative costs and concessionaires are not going to cover the costs? What kind of a deal is that??

No friend, not everyone in this state is going to sit on the sidelines and not make an issue about State subsidized and welfare programs for special interest commercial hunting business that take public resources for profit.

The BGCSB does not even collect enough liceninsing fees to cover the actual costs of operating the board. Now you want us to believe guides are going to pony up enough money to cover the board and the 'actual costs' of this program?:confused:

I don't believe that this program is going to come to pass. Besides the commissioner of DNR just cut the 400K budget request already.

But even so...if there are no bidders where is that written in stone? Have you seen the prospectus?

"There is no justification that only guides have exclusive and joint use concessions."

...apparently there is to the people who have the responsiblity of managing these lands.

Read the Osichek decision and the Mcdowell decisions....

Transporters are licensed under the same regulatory board as guides.

Transporters will have to be consider just as eligible for these concessions.

..I haven't heard anything of transporters being inluded in a GUIDE concession. You have to have a guiding business to apply for a permit, or be awarded one.

Well you have now but you don't seem to be very open minded about it.

Like I said; transporters are a business not unlike guiding is a business and they are licensed and regulated under the same body of law....you don't have to have a 'guiding' business to be eligible to bid....and these concessions are not being talked about like they are 'permits' they are contracts and they talk like there will be a measurement of deciding who is going to own the contract and MONEY is going to be part of the deal.

And, State contracts that dispose of public resources or 'assets' must be competed when they concern state assets....that is the law.

"Then when joe-six pack books a flight into that area he knows only the transporter who owns the area will be dropping joe's off and no guides in the area."

what grapevine are you getting your info from? be curious to see some of it.
Avalanche..you gonna be at the BGCSB meeting in fairbanks?
where you at the anchorage one?

I have my sources and it is not the BGCSB or APHA.

Eveybody that wants to can see it. Just ask DNR. But ask in writing under the ORA. You will be surprised at what you get.

Nope wont be at BGSB or Anc.....gonna stay productive and hope to be hunting wolves. End of Feb all of March...dont get any better than that.

[BRWNBR]

dang avalanche...not so much at once...lol

[AVALANCHE]

Also the State can now regulate the non-alaska-resident hunting Guide ..... leagley

Resident Guides will get more points ..... the Guides with the highest points (in the end) wins ..... or gets the Bid ....

Where does that information come from. The mythical prospectus written by bill horn or the proposed new 'guide bill'?

[AVALANCHE]

dang avalanche...not so much at once...lol

sorry man

[BRWNBR]

The other 21 guides can only go somewhere else if they have a concession, the concession will include, state, blm and state park lands, so other than private corp theres not much else out there.


I haven't actually gotten anything from APHA on this, its all come from the mouth thats heading this at DNR.

The prospectus is in mock form right now, wrote and being wrote by DNR. They don't have it hammer out in stone yet, just ideas on points and scoring and so on, we'll get more in fairbanks on where thats at.


The deal with no bidding, is there will be a cost per permit and maybe a per head cost or a percentage cost. Right now you can offer a different permit fee, example i might offer to pay 1000 per year and someone else might offer to pay 3000 per year....points will be given off that, which is where everyone is getting this bid stuff from. but the money on the permit stuff is only worth 15 points out of a possible 100 on the prospectus.

Oh agreed, not everyone is gonna sit and watch this, the guys that win permits will, but everyone else will be up in arms, cause "it ain't fair". which is why we all cry.

Guides ponying up money to covere BGCSB and this concession stuff is two seperate deals and if it comes down to having ajob or not...guides will pony up the money.

it woudlnt' suprise me if this all fell it its face either. They've grabbed a big gorilla.






"Transporters are licensed under the same regulatory board as guides."
but do not hold guide outfitter licenses....

"Transporters will have to be consider just as eligible for these concessions."
Why they are not licenesed big game guides outfitters.





"Like I said; transporters are a business not unlike guiding is a business and they are licensed and regulated under the same body of law....you don't have to have a 'guiding' business to be eligible to bid....and these concessions are not being talked about like they are 'permits' they are contracts and they talk like there will be a measurement of deciding who is going to own the contract and MONEY is going to be part of the deal."
....wheres all this come from? other than your "sources".

"I have my sources and it is not the BGCSB or APHA."
....your complaining about the secrecy of all this but you won't say anything other than that?? geez come on.

Whats the ORA?

Well being at these meetings might give you a chance to throw fruit or cabbage right at the AHPA board...something fun to break up the boredom...then you don't have to sling mud in secret and play this conspiricay theory stuff on ODD.
__________________