Board of game proposal 199 trapping Matsu valley trapping setback from trails.

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  • Board of game proposal 199 trapping Matsu valley trapping setback from trails.

    Thought maybe this bears some discussion as there are a lot of members here from the Matsu valley.
    I'm sure some of you are trappers in the valley.
    Just curious what your opinions are on this one.
    Personally I don't have an issue with it provided there are specific designated trails that are listed and that they meet the criteria listed in the article.
    Though I will admit I don't live in the Matsu valley so I'm not familiar with the majority of these trails.
    I do feel that pet owners have a responsibility as well. A friend of mine lost 40 chickens to a neighbor dog that was allowed to run free.
    Ended up shooting the dog while it was in his Chicken run and his neighbor was very agitated trying to tell him that his dog would not do that.
    But it was all too obvious what had happened.
    But he was nice enough to give the guy his collar back.
    Anyway the article was written from the perspective of the person who wrote The proposal so keep that in mind while you're reading this. https://alaskalandmine.com/landmines...in-the-mat-su/

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    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

  • #2
    Seriously, at 16 pages and something approaching 200 "trails" can Alaska wildlife Alliance be serious? "Trails" that in some instances are rivers and in the most remote corners of units 13,16 etc. Is an under ice beaver set for example ever going to catch a dog? No. Is a marten box near a trail a threat to loose dogs? No. The proposal is ridiculous and will likely make the Alaska Wildlife Alliance appear ridiculous to most of the Board of Game members.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by extrema View Post
      Seriously, at 16 pages and something approaching 200 "trails" can Alaska wildlife Alliance be serious? "Trails" that in some instances are rivers and in the most remote corners of units 13,16 etc. Is an under ice beaver set for example ever going to catch a dog? No. Is a marten box near a trail a threat to loose dogs? No. The proposal is ridiculous and will likely make the Alaska Wildlife Alliance appear ridiculous to most of the Board of Game members.
      Like I said I'm unfamiliar with the trails in that area as I live on the Kenai Peninsula.
      Didn't realize it was a full 200 trails that does seem a bit ridiculous.
      Especially if some of those trails are as you say very remote, river trails, etc.
      It's also thought it was funny when she said what user group only goes by a code of ethics?
      Dog walkers have what, a leash law in certain areas, other than that they don't even have a code of ethics.
      There's no code of ethics for hikers and lots of other hobbies.
      I do think if there are well used multi-user main trails that those specific trails should have a setback.
      But 200 trails seems a bit much to really fit that criteria.
      We'll have to see how this goes I guess.

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      "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

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      • #4
        Originally posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
        It's also thought it was funny when she said what user group only goes by a code of ethics?
        Good point. Unfortunately in their zeal, the truth for Alaska Wildlife Alliance is an evasive concept. The Alaska Trapping Regulations summary book is 44 pages of laws/regulations and counting..

        https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/r...s/trapping.pdf
        ,

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        • #5
          Originally posted by extrema View Post
          Unfortunately in their zeal, the truth for Alaska Wildlife Alliance is an evasive concept. The Alaska Trapping Regulations summary book is 44 pages of laws/regulations and counting...
          I don't know anything about the AWA, but i recognize an ironic statement of half truths and false equivalency when i see it.
          ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
          I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
          The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

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          • #6
            We all know Marten traps and under water traps aren't going to catch a dog. I have trapped in the past and am also a dog owner. Anyone setting leg hold traps, snares and Conibears next to a public trail is an idiot.
            Hunt Ethically. Respect the Environment.

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            • #7
              Perhaps "we" all know that but I doubt the antis do and if they do it doesn't show in their proposal so I am left to assume they either don't know or don
              't care. They want traps gone so their dogs can run loose. Incidentally, here is what the AWT have to say about loose dogs:

              Proposal 99

              This problem exists primarily because dog owners do not have their pets on leash. Any situation that reduces the motivation to keep dogs on leashes has a detriment to both public safety and moose health due to increased dog vs dog fighting, dog vs people attack, dogs chasing moose, and dog vs pack animal attacks. AWT is regularly dispatched to calls for service where moose are agitated due to being chased by unsecured dogs. Enforcement of such a regulation would be very challenging, like our disagreement of proposal 199. How would anyone know if “public funds” were used to fund the trail or campground? Such areas would require new signs and marking. How would a trapper or AWT know if a dwelling was “permanent” or not, or a cabin was” less than 800 square feet” or “unoccupied a majority of the time?” This proposal as written would be very difficult to enforce.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by SmokeRoss View Post
                Anyone setting leg hold traps, snares and Conibears next to a public trail is an idiot.
                Idiots abound. I can't count the times I've seen leg hold traps jump up out of the trail after my partner in the lead ran over them with her snowmachine. Idiots render public trails unsafe for all other users, and the trapping community does virtually nothing to police their own. Thus people are compelled to make laws... The "loose dogs" argument is a red herring. Traps in/along trails render those trails unsafe for dogs on leashes, dogs pulling sleds or skiers... hell, they're even hard on a snowmachine track after they jump up in front of you and you run them over.
                ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
                I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
                The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

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                • #9
                  Loose dogs is absolutely the issue. The proposal is to close trapping within 50 yards of trails, not just in the trail. That is because they want to let their dogs run loose. Nicole Schmit says that is what they want in the linked article. If the proposal was just to close trapping actually in public trails it would probably fly. The only time I[ve seen traps actually set in trails is in a snowmachine trail not associated with a public trail. Not saying it doesn't happen but I doubt it's very common because not just idiots abound but thieves abound as well. Especially within easy walking distance which is why you see them, I guess, when you're snowmachining presumably a good ways out. The trappers association has done more than any other group to help raise awareness and reduce conflict through signage, trapper education and public outreach through Shared Trails presentations where users are taught how to recognise traplines and what to do. Traps near trails do not render those trails unsafe for leashed dogs, sled dogs or skiers much less snowmachiners.
                  Here are some Public Service Announcement Videos as examples of ATA's public outreach: https://www.alaskatrappers.org/my-alaska-videos.html

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                  • #10
                    I guess I never seen traps set in multi-use trails myself.
                    Maybe they're there I've just never encountered them.
                    I guess we did find some traps hanging in a tree once but they weren't set and this was after a wildfire.
                    But I have had a lot of issues with stray dogs.
                    And some of my friends have lost a lot of dollars in birds to neighbor dogs that were not restrained properly.
                    Had a close neighbor once whose dogs would come over routinely and jump on my wife when she got home from work. Getting muddy paw prints all over her work clothes.
                    Sometimes the neighbors would call them back home and sometimes they didn't or weren't home at the time.
                    It wasn't until the wife told the neighbors that I was going to shoot the dogs if they didn't keep them restrained that they actually put some effort into it.
                    I'd be willing to bet the number of irresponsible pet owners is much higher per capita than the number of irresponsible trappers.
                    Even more so if you only counted the experienced trappers.
                    I'm not saying that true multi-use trails should have traps set all over them.
                    But there are a lot of trails out there some of which were probably originally made by the trappers themselves.
                    And a lot of pet owners think that since it's Alaska they can let their dogs run free everywhere they go. Even if they're out at a popular fishing hole or amongst other hikers and other people not part of their own group.

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                    "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

                    "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by extrema View Post
                      The only time I[ve seen traps actually set in trails is in a snowmachine trail not associated with a public trail. Not saying it doesn't happen but I doubt it's very common because not just idiots abound but thieves abound as well.
                      Whether you've witnessed it, or not, doubt it, or not is irrelevant, as is the remoteness of the trail. If I'm way, way out on public land skijouring with my dog and he steps in a leg hold trap set in or along the trail, my distance from town is as irrelevant as your asserted opinion is to my actual experience at the time. If I'm on a seismic survey trail halfway between Glennallen and Valdez, and I run over traps in the trail, or hit neck snares in the dark which come up over or around my snowmachine windshield...or catch my dog(s) if i'm skijouring with a pulk...that's absolutely unacceptable. The threat is real. I've experienced it for decades, and no amount of squirmy excuses or carefully crafted semantic nuance regarding the trap's exact proximity to the trail center-line will ever change that.
                      ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
                      I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
                      The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

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                      • #12
                        I don't think we need to make every single trail on public land out there off limits to trappers.
                        There's so many old seismograph trails and such in Alaska and sometimes the trails we're recreating on were made/maintained by trappers for the purpose of trapping.
                        I've seen a lot of furry critter tracks going down such trails in the past. It's no surprise to me especially for the more remote trails that trappers will want to make sets in/on/around them.
                        If a trail is designated a public use trail and has any kind of signage indicating such or is listed as such that's one thing.
                        But to say you found some old seismograph trail or some other type of unmarked trail out there in the middle of nowhere and no one should set a trap on it is kind of ridiculous to me.
                        Whether you're on a snow machine, hiking,skiing, skijouring or whatever.


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                        "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

                        "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
                          I've seen a lot of furry critter tracks going down such trails in the past. It's no surprise to me especially for the more remote trails that trappers will want to make sets in/on/around them. ... But to say you found some old seismograph trail or some other type of unmarked trail out there in the middle of nowhere and no one should set a trap on it is kind of ridiculous to me.
                          Whether you're on a snow machine, hiking,skiing, skijouring or whatever.
                          The point here is that this goes (or SHOULD go) both ways. A seismic trail (for example) in the middle of nowhere on public land is, by definition, a public trail. Anyone can use it; no special signage or other designation is required. If you want to trap it, and if in doing so, you mark the heck out of it, construct and mark bypass loops around your sets, etc., respecting the fact that you DO NOT have exclusive rights to that trail, then you will garner my respect and we'll get along fine. But if you take the position that your right to trap that trail supersedes my right to use that trail...and if you adopt a holier than thou attitude and hide behind laws supporting such a holier than thou attitude - laws that say you don't have to tag your traps with ownership info, don't have to mark your trails or sets, make it illegal for me to disturb your traps, even if they present a hazard to me, laws that effectively give you exclusive use of that trail over all other users - then I will fight you until the day I die.

                          ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
                          I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
                          The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by iofthetaiga View Post
                            The point here is that this goes (or SHOULD go) both ways. A seismic trail (for example) in the middle of nowhere on public land is, by definition, a public trail. Anyone can use it; no special signage or other designation is required. If you want to trap it, and if in doing so, you mark the heck out of it, construct and mark bypass loops around your sets, etc., respecting the fact that you DO NOT have exclusive rights to that trail, then you will garner my respect and we'll get along fine. But if you take the position that your right to trap that trail supersedes my right to use that trail...and if you adopt a holier than thou attitude and hide behind laws supporting such a holier than thou attitude - laws that say you don't have to tag your traps with ownership info, don't have to mark your trails or sets, make it illegal for me to disturb your traps, even if they present a hazard to me, laws that effectively give you exclusive use of that trail over all other users - then I will fight you until the day I die.
                            So if a trapper makes a trail on public land in the middle of nowhere you feel he has the obligation to put up giant signs telling you it's being trapped? And put bypass routes around every one of his sets?
                            On a trail that he made specifically for trapping?
                            I mean that would be a public trail since it's on public land right?
                            Seems a bit far-fetched to me.
                            While we're at it why don't we also close all public trails to hunting because some hiker or their dog may accidentally be hit by a stray bullet!

                            Sent from my S41 using Tapatalk

                            "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

                            "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
                              I mean that would be a public trail since it's on public land right?
                              Seems a bit far-fetched to me.
                              Well, if that seems far fetched to you, i suggest you brush up on your understanding of the definition of public land.

                              The attitude you've just articulated exemplifies the very essence of the problem: a portion of one single user group believes they should have use of public land for their chosen activity, to the exclusion of the rest of the public. It simply doesn't work that way.
                              ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
                              I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
                              The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

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