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2014 Charter Harvest

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  • #31
    It looks like after years of under guessing the harvest of the charter fleet to justify the under allocation. Now under a so called hard cap on charter harvest we should be OK with best guess on what the charter harvest is. I think that's not the way it should be done. If we are protecting the halibut stock we need to know what is being harvested, not guess! As for how the sampling was/is conducted on the charter fleet I have to toss the BS flag after not being sampled in 7 years of 65 to 100 charter trips. To me it looked as big fish were to much trouble to handle so why check a 6 pack that has bigger fish when checking a party boat would fill more blanks with way less work. I had fish checker stop by, but when they saw the fish they would say "looks like you had a good day" then move on to a party boat that had a 15lb average.

    " Confidence intervals are more than accurate enough for management purposes. The only way to know
    exactly how many pounds were harvested, would be to have a mandatory weigh station that each charter must check in at upon arrival back at port."

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    • #32
      Originally posted by 270ti View Post
      Why not just have the charter measure the halibut, and put the length in the logbook next to the clients name when the fish is landed?
      The only problem with that is we would be relying on the honesty of charters. One or two high client boats with a short tape measure (if you know what I mean) could skew things. It might be more accurate, but keep in mind the current harvest calculation method has a 95% or higher confidence interval. The only exact method is to actually weigh them at port, and put an observer onboard to count releases/mortality.


      MGH55, are you suggesting management purposely "under guessed" charter harvest for years to keep allocations down? That makes no sense, because it means they would've purposely let charters catch more than allowed while at the same time trying to reduce their allocations - an oxymoron. So is that just your theory, or do you have evidence/reference? Scientific models were used to predict catch and set allocations. I will not argue that some of those models were not perfect, and in hindsight managers admittedly found some errors that they fixed.

      Charter harvest is not a "guess". Accuracy is based on data, observation, and scientific models. It has a high confidence interval. If you are arguing that it is not exact, I would agree, only with the understanding that it is exact enough for management purposes.

      Dock surveys are only one aspect of the comprehensive data collection process. Your accusations that those surveys are bias is lacking any legitimate evidence. Keep in mind that even if you were not sampled, that does not mean the harvest estimates are wrong.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Funstastic View Post
        The only problem with that is we would be relying on the honesty of charters.
        What part of the 3 agencies chasing us around did you miss? You can get boarded by the troopers, NOAA, or USCG on any given day, at any given time. And no, a charter cannot outrun or change anything when they spot you. They are rather quick. We have more LE looking at us than you can shake a stick at. Log books rely on honestly. Not to mention that GAF relies on the "honestly" of charters.
        Alaska Wide Open Charters
        www.alaskawideopen.com
        907-965-0130

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        • #34
          Originally posted by 270ti View Post
          What part of the 3 agencies chasing us around did you miss? You can get boarded by the troopers, NOAA, or USCG on any given day, at any given time. And no, a charter cannot outrun or change anything when they spot you. They are rather quick. We have more LE looking at us than you can shake a stick at. Log books rely on honestly. Not to mention that GAF relies on the "honestly" of charters.
          If those 3 agencies have that much of a presence, then I would suggest they can record the weights/lengths. MGH55 claims his charter's halibut weren't checked in 7 years.

          There is a direct conflict of interest having charters weigh/measure the same fish that go against their own harvest limit. That leaves the door open, and almost invites cheating the system. I can't see it working to good with on-board filleting either. But hey, maybe long liners should weigh and measure their own harvests too.

          Log books don't collect weights/lengths - for obvious reasons - their harvests determine their own allocations. Length is recorded for GAF because it's related to commercial IFQ.

          Look, I'm all for better accuracy. But I'm not for letting the charters do it themselves. My point was that we do have a good idea of charter harvests, and they are not a guess. While our current harvest records might not be perfect, they have a high confidence interval and are accurate enough for fishery management.

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          • #35
            Funstastic, you are talking out both side of your mouth. You may have a high confidence level of the guessing done for fisheries management in the past. I look at the huge mistakes that were made by the same people you have high confidence in. The only people that can get it wrong more and keep their job is a weatherman! I hope we get a good house cleaning done and start holding people accountable for not doing a good job. Yes, you are right that we need a better accurate record of charter harvest. If there had been a true record of charter halibut in the past the charter allocation would have been much higher then what it is under the CSP that we have today. Thanks for your input you sound a lot like Grampyfish.

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            • #36
              Charters already do it themselves. They have the choice to put 2, 1 or 0 in the logbook every single day. They also have a choice to accurately put down the number of releases. Yet you say that is 95% accurate, but simply measuring the halibut wouldn't be?! It would be ridiculous to think that NOAA, the USCG, or the Troopers would measure every halibut. That's not even logical and would be a waste of valuable resources.

              Look, I understand you are a disgruntled IFQ holder that will fight anything and everything a charter wants or says. We get it. Do you even fish your own IFQ anymore, or do you think you are entitled to those fish and have somebody else fish them?

              BTW, do you know any longliners that don't measure each halibut as it comes aboard to give them an idea how many #s are in the boat?


              Originally posted by Funstastic View Post
              If those 3 agencies have that much of a presence, then I would suggest they can record the weights/lengths. MGH55 claims his charter's halibut weren't checked in 7 years.

              There is a direct conflict of interest having charters weigh/measure the same fish that go against their own harvest limit. That leaves the door open, and almost invites cheating the system. I can't see it working to good with on-board filleting either. But hey, maybe long liners should weigh and measure their own harvests too.

              Log books don't collect weights/lengths - for obvious reasons - their harvests determine their own allocations. Length is recorded for GAF because it's related to commercial IFQ.

              Look, I'm all for better accuracy. But I'm not for letting the charters do it themselves. My point was that we do have a good idea of charter harvests, and they are not a guess. While our current harvest records might not be perfect, they have a high confidence interval and are accurate enough for fishery management.
              Alaska Wide Open Charters
              www.alaskawideopen.com
              907-965-0130

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              • #37
                Hmmmm,

                Just because an INDIVIDUAL longliner can roll over 10% does not mean the FLEET will. When measured as a fleet, the Longliners are typically right in their allocation. They caught 99% of the quota this year according to the homer broker's web site. So it's not reasonable to say that the charter fleet should get 10% overage just because an individual longliner does when the longline fleet is held more or less to 100% or less.



                11/21/14: Season ended November 7th at noon. 99% of the halibut quota and 90% of the sablefish quota was landed this year, including 97% of 2C, 100% of 3A, 99% of 3B, 97% of 4A, 95% of 4B and 96% of 4CDE halibut, 40% of AI, 36% of BS, 100% of CG, 100% of SE, 94% of WG and 99% of WY sablefish.

                Comment


                • #38
                  MGH55, the 95% confidence interval is not mine, it is published by ADFG who does the SWHS, dock surveys, and log books (already referenced). Much of the data is provided by charters and fishermen themselves. Harvests calculations using that data are not a "guess", they are scientifically justified. If you are going to base your argument on the idea the harvest data is wrong, then please post your proof.

                  For better accuracy, I would support a requirement that charters must have their catch weighed upon returning to port. That's how commercial harvest is determined.

                  Past charter allocations (GHL) were based on 5 years of charter reporting, plus an additional 25% for growth. In other words, allocations were liberal, and in fact higher than historical catch. So the problem was not that allocations were too low, it was that the charter industry quickly grew much more than 25%, and thus began exceeding the limit, which had no hard cap or penalty.

                  Of course management has not been perfect. Hind-sight is always 20-20. The learning curve for trying to limit an open-ended charter industry has been steep. However, that does not mean harvest numbers are a guess and allocations too low. The time for excuses and re-hashing is over. Charter limits were exceeded this year, and we need to find a way to keep that from happening again.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    270ti, measuring halibut is accurate. However I do not believe charters measuring their own halibut, which in the end will determine their own allocation, would be accurate or fair. It invites bias, and presents a conflict of interest in allocation distribution. Not sure why you wouldn't want charter halibut weighed or measured by a third party, especially if you want accuracy. NOAA, USCG, or the Troopers don't measure any of the long-liner's halibut, yet they are accurate right to the pound.

                    Realize that a 95% confidence interval comes from an evaluation of not just log books, but also a comprehensive evaluation of SWHS, and physical dock surveys, combined.

                    Your emotional accusations and personal attacks are disappointing. Sorry, but I'm not a "disgruntled IFQ holder" and I want nothing but the best for charters. I am simply concerned when charters (or any user) exceeds their harvest limits (what this thread is about), and I am compelled to weigh in on comments that I feel are not beneficial to the stock.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      "Of course management has not been perfect. Hind-sight is always 20-20. The learning curve for trying to limit an open-ended charter industry has been steep. However, that does not mean harvest numbers are a guess and allocations too low. The time for excuses and re-hashing is over. Charter limits were exceeded this year, and we need to find a way to keep that from happening again."

                      Funstastic, as you stated above The past was not perfect. I was on the dock and saw who was and who was not having their halibut sampled by the fish checkers. I don't think you were there to see what was going on. As for how to keep the charter fleet from going over their allocation is very simple. We have all the numbers now, so let's use them. We know how many charter seats are out there, and we will now how many pounds the charter fleet allocation will be. Break it down to pounds per seat for a total pounds per boat just like the IFQ system for the longline fleet. Each charter would have to have their daily catch weighed and removed from their allocation. If a charter needs more pounds they have the option to buy more charter seats, or buy IFQ's to add to their poundage. This would do away with the GAF fish because we need to not be guessing anymore.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        MGH55, I just looked up one example showing over 2000 halibut sampled from charters at the Homer port between 2000-2003 (Recreational Halibut Fishing Statistics for South Central Alaska Area 3A). Now you might not like facts, but thousands of Halibut were sampled in Homer, not to mention Anchor Point and Deep Creek. Data from those halibut were in fact used scientifically to calculate harvest estimates with a high confidence interval. So before you continue repeating your ideas that harvests were a "guess", please make a trip down to ADFG and look up the SWHS data, physical sample data by port, estimation procedures, log book data, scientific studies, harvest reports, and even publications evaluating the accuracy of all those things. Maybe then, instead of trying to sweep historical harvests under the carpet and laying blame on bad harvest estimates, we can have a rational discussion.

                        As for not knowing what's going on....excuse me, but I slipped a boat at the Homer dock from 1972 to 1998 - Derby days to quota days. I have both long-lined and worked charter boats out of Homer, Anchor Point, and Deep Creek. I now sport fish Homer year-round, as much as my body allows. And of course, unlike you, I experienced the fishery long before charters ever sprouted. But really, that has nothing to do with the facts about harvest estimations or charters exceeding their limits. You digress.

                        Hopefully you agree that we must make every effort to keep charters from exceeding their harvest limits.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Funstastic View Post
                          270ti, measuring halibut is accurate. However I do not believe charters measuring their own halibut, which in the end will determine their own allocation, would be accurate or fair. It invites bias, and presents a conflict of interest in allocation distribution. Not sure why you wouldn't want charter halibut weighed or measured by a third party, especially if you want accuracy. NOAA, USCG, or the Troopers don't measure any of the long-liner's halibut, yet they are accurate right to the pound.

                          Realize that a 95% confidence interval comes from an evaluation of not just log books, but also a comprehensive evaluation of SWHS, and physical dock surveys, combined.

                          Your emotional accusations and personal attacks are disappointing. Sorry, but I'm not a "disgruntled IFQ holder" and I want nothing but the best for charters. I am simply concerned when charters (or any user) exceeds their harvest limits (what this thread is about), and I am compelled to weigh in on comments that I feel are not beneficial to the stock.
                          It's very obvious from your posts both as grampyfishes and now funtastic that you hold nothing but ill will towards the charter fleet. You were grandfathered into a system where you can now not even fish your own IFQ, but still reap the rewards of the ocean... all while working hard to make it difficult for other Alaskans to make a living. Works out great for you, but not so great for the generations coming up.
                          Alaska Wide Open Charters
                          www.alaskawideopen.com
                          907-965-0130

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Funstastic, I watched a lot of the sampling take place and very few were ever a six pack, most were half day or big party boats that catch lots of smaller fish. If you have a list of the boats that the samples came from. I know that ADF&G has some numbers, but no solid numbers with boat name and signed for by the permit holder like I have to do to sell my fish. What charter boats did you run in Homer? How big was your longliner? I stick by the fact we know no hard and true numbers of the charter catch. Now we can fix that problem, so we should do it once and for all. Sorry if that fixing the problem is hard for you, or is it having to admit there has been an on going problem the hardest part?

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                            • #44
                              Here is just what a good, but not great six pack day looks like.



                              What would be wrong with having to true charter harvest be a known number. It would not be that hard.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The problem is that they are managing limits per angler on charters, rather than for the boat. Party fishing needs to be legalized, and then specific limits need to be given to the boat based on the number of passengers. Have a formula and a chart. It would be a much better solution than what they've got going right now. Right now, the above happens. It shouldn't. It's so easy to get on a patch of bigger halibut and mop them up. Boat limits could be something like (for six passengers) 1 halibut up to 50 inches, 1 halibut up to 42 inches, 1 halibut up to 36 inches, and 3 halibut under 34 inches. Adjust for a 2 fish limit. That would prevent a charter captain from finding a patch and wiping out out, as well as the quota. A few nice still get to be landed, and this prevents the guides in areas with higher abundances of bigger halibut from wiping out the allocation for the areas that that give up the occasional nice one to a lucky client.
                                Alaska Wide Open Charters
                                www.alaskawideopen.com
                                907-965-0130

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