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Fraser River sockeye and why Carl Walters is correct

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  • #31
    Originally posted by smithtb View Post
    "They" was a direct reference to the residents of the villages which Coho referenced in his post, which I quoted in mine. Nothing in my post was untrue - the cost of living is high and education and employment opportunities are scarce in these regions, which are highly subsidized by state and local government. I happen to think it is not demeaning but rather empowering to remind someone that if they don't like their situation they can change it. In fact I bet plenty of residents in these communities encourage young people to seek education and employment elsewhere. Big difference between what I said and what others are saying/doing about the ESSN's. I merely stated that they could leave or have access to other opportunities if they wanted to. No one is trying to force them out or suggest they watch what they say or that might happen. I would never dream of it.

    As for sonar... I use a 1kw Airmar SS175 thru-hull 0 degree mid-range variable frequency 85-135khz (and all points in between) CHIRP transducer and it works like a wet dream. As for my Chartplotter settings, I'll admit I don't know them off the top of my head but it sounds like I need to have you over for a beer to dial it in
    I drink free cold beer all the time when invited.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Nerka View Post
      The above is what I was referencing smithtb. Saying they ( whoever they are) can buy a ticket out, find a job, and order food from Freddies is typical comments that demean a people as a group. Saying you respect them in the next paragraph does not absolve you of the above comment. Not sure why you would even write it. People are saying the same thing about commercial eastside set net fisherman - they can get a new job, give up their family history, goes elsewhere, and all the other stuff one says to demean a group. If you cannot see this as a problem so be it. But do not expect people to support your position for commercial fishing in UCI on values that you and others have expressed about families and commercial fishing.
      Nerka, why are smithtb's comments considered "racism" and "demeaning people as a group", yet Chohoangler's aren't? It was Cohoangler who first singled out a certain group of people and made an untrue statement about what they can't do. smithtb only responded with a true statement about what they can do. And then to criticize his values on behalf of the people?

      Also, I find your analogy trying to compare the subsistence issue in the Yukon with the set net issue on CI, completely obtuse - very different fisheries with very different social and allocation situations.

      As for sonar...just because the sonar systems fishermen use aren't $100,000 scientific counting systems, does not mean they aren't effective for fishing. So while I respect your experience and knowledge with scientific fish-counting sonar, your previous comments about using it for fishing as being "over-rated" exposes your lack of experience and knowledge using them as a fisherman. Again, the sonar available to fishermen is quite fantastic, and dramatically increases efficiency and success. There are drifters out there who understand their sonar, and use it effectively to their advantage. smithtb's CHIRP system is a great example. Obviously you have zero experience fishing with it.

      To answer your questions, I use three sonar units simultaneously at the helm- to give a diverse combination of results that help eliminate errors and false readings, and confirm fish with consensus. They probably cost me $3,000 all together...not $10K or $100K (I'm just a sports fisherman with a 24' boat). I can run six different frequencies at once - the Garmin and Lowrance each have their own dual frequency transducers separating them, and the Furuno has two independent high performance multiple element transducers with variable frequency choice. Using either 12V or 24V, I can put out a target strength from 600W up to 3KW - 0ft to 9,000 ft. Depending on my transducer choice, I can run a wide range of beam angles. If I recall, mine vary from 5 degrees on the Furuno to 120 on the Lowrance. I'm not sure what my signal to noise ratio actually is, probably not as high as the CHIRP. It doesn't really matter, I'm familiar enough with my readings to decipher noise - I've been using sonar technology for over half a century. I think all my units echo integrate - the processor interprets structure and densities through complex vibrations, strength, and timing of return signals. Again, I look for consensus among the three different units simultaneously. Remember, few fishermen are trying to count individual fish. And few fishermen expect their sonar to be 100% accurate.

      Nerka, I've gained new respect for today's fishing sonar by sending down a Go Pro in a Troll Pro. It proved my sonar is not "over-rated", but rather very accurate.

      Comment


      • #33
        Fun - I object to your characterization of my earlier post. My example was intended to point out that the sustained yield concept did not prevent the serious decline in Yukon River Chinook stocks; that the folks living in small villages along the Yukon might disagree with your suggestion that we have a “reasonable handle” on what is sustainable, and that sustained yield means different things to different people depending on whether you depend on the river for your dinner, or can walk to Freddies for a steak. You even agreed with the intent of my post, with the statement “…… as I get the idea you are trying to portray.”

        I won't comment on TB or Nerka's posts but you’re reading more into my posts than a reasonable interpretation would warrant. I never mentioned subsistence, obesity, special privileges, opportunities, subsidies, double-standards, or racism. I got those words from your posts in this thread. I was just pointing out that “sustained yield” means different things to different people, depending on where you live, and where your next meal is coming from. Nothing more.

        And, to put a finer point on it, I apologized for inadvertently bringing subsistence into the discussion since I know where that usually takes us.....

        Comment


        • #34
          Fun, glad your sonar are working for you. I think I said they were over-rated relative to saying fish were running deep and other behavioral aspects. Sonar certainly has improved fishing efficiency given just knowing what water depth and structure one is over helps a lot. Seeing schools of bait fish is also in the realm of today's sport fishing sonar. I was more focused on fisherman commenting on fish behavior, abundance estimates, and subjects that require more precise data. If I was not clear this should clear it up.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cohoangler View Post
            Fun - I object to your characterization of my earlier post. My example was intended to point out that the sustained yield concept did not prevent the serious decline in Yukon River Chinook stocks; that the folks living in small villages along the Yukon might disagree with your suggestion that we have a “reasonable handle” on what is sustainable, and that sustained yield means different things to different people depending on whether you depend on the river for your dinner, or can walk to Freddies for a steak. You even agreed with the intent of my post, with the statement “…… as I get the idea you are trying to portray.”

            I won't comment on TB or Nerka's posts but you’re reading more into my posts than a reasonable interpretation would warrant. I never mentioned subsistence, obesity, special privileges, opportunities, subsidies, double-standards, or racism. I got those words from your posts in this thread. I was just pointing out that “sustained yield” means different things to different people, depending on where you live, and where your next meal is coming from. Nothing more.

            And, to put a finer point on it, I apologized for inadvertently bringing subsistence into the discussion since I know where that usually takes us.....
            Coho, you are mistaken. Read back - I did not characterize your earlier post in any particular way. As I said before; nothing deserves and apology, and neither your post nor smithtb's was racist or demeaning, as Nerka would like us to believe.

            My point was that it is extremely bias for Nerka to find smithtb's post racist and demeaning, yet not find yours the same. That does not imply your post was racist and demeaning. It just means Nerka only sees things one-sided. After all, both of your comments singled out the same group of people - you first bringing them up, and talking about what they depend on and what they can't do - smithtb responding to that, talking about what "they" don't depend on and what they can do. It is only bias that determined which one is racist and demeaning, and which is not. I too found smithtb's comments more about empowerment and independence, and yours more about separation and dependency. Neither racist.

            As for the facts:

            It wasn't inadvertent. The subsistence issue was a dead give-away when you singled out Nulato, Kaltag, and Anvik. Unlike many other communities in Alaska, all of them are subsistence dependent communities. Plus, there is no question you were talking about subsistence since you mentioned salmon being the difference between eating and not.

            Also, you most certainly brought up race when you mentioned the people there, who we all know are predominantly (90%+) Koyukon and Deg Hit'an Athabascans.

            You brought up what these people eat, implying without salmon they don't eat. So talking about obesity better puts your comments in context. It is a fact that obesity is a problem in those communities. I believe the State of Alaska Public Health has the statistics.

            It is a fact that the people of these communities get special privileges that others don't - land and resource preference, financial subsidies, health benefits, job preference, scholarship preference, etc. So if you are going to talk about a way of life and things these people depend on, then we should be honest about it and put political correctness aside.

            You claimed these people can't go to Freddies and buy a steak. That is not true. They can, and actually have the same opportunity to do that as anyone. Yet not anyone has the same opportunities they do. So to not point out the untruth in your statements would be a disservice to readers, perhaps even implying they are disadvantaged or oppressed, which they are far from.

            The double standard issue is not new in the discussion of subsistence fishing. Fishing under the guise of a traditional lifestyle, yet using non-traditional ways to do it, is a double standard worth discussing particularly when allocation among all users is concerned.

            But of course digressing from the topic of sustained yield to this pathetic issue is what happens when someone cries "racism". I think we are all clear here now and can move on.

            Comment


            • #36
              I agree with your last sentence. Let's move on.....

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Funstastic View Post
                My point was that it is extremely bias for Nerka to find smithtb's post racist and demeaning, yet not find yours the same. That does not imply your post was racist and demeaning. It just means Nerka only sees things one-sided. After all, both of your comments singled out the same group of people - you first bringing them up, and talking about what they depend on and what they can't do - smithtb responding to that, talking about what "they" don't depend on and what they can do. It is only bias that determined which one is racist and demeaning, and which is not. I too found smithtb's comments more about empowerment and independence, and yours more about separation and dependency. Neither racist.
                Funstastic, just for the record since you correct people all the time. I did not say smithtb post was racist. I said in fact I knew it was not because I know him. Reread my post. What I said was that other people who do not know him could read it that way for the reason I stated. Mr. Fish had a very negative reaction. So please if you are going to attack me do it on what I say not what you think I said. Also, what is a racist comment or not is not up to you to decide. You can disagree but to say others are wrong and one-sided shows a bias that is not healthy. I am sure lots of southern white folks think they were never racist in their lives but history shows otherwise. So lets move on but please reread my post where I was trying to let smithtb know that he should be more careful in how he states things given the sensitive nature of subsistence and natives in Alaska.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Nerka View Post
                  Funstastic, just for the record since you correct people all the time. I did not say smithtb post was racist. I said in fact I knew it was not because I know him. Reread my post. What I said was that other people who do not know him could read it that way for the reason I stated. Mr. Fish had a very negative reaction. So please if you are going to attack me do it on what I say not what you think I said. Also, what is a racist comment or not is not up to you to decide. You can disagree but to say others are wrong and one-sided shows a bias that is not healthy. I am sure lots of southern white folks think they were never racist in their lives but history shows otherwise. So lets move on but please reread my post where I was trying to let smithtb know that he should be more careful in how he states things given the sensitive nature of subsistence and natives in Alaska.
                  You had no business bringing up racism, or even mentioning anyone would think smithtb is a racist. So take your medicine...

                  "In fact, your comments border on racism which I know you are not but written words can be read only from the viewer perspective." - Nerka

                  "You can speak your mind - just be precise in what you mean because if one thinks you are being racist or generalize a whole user group falsely you lose the argument whether your point is valid or not." - Nerka

                  You are the one who decided what a racist comment was, not me. And you are the one who showed bias by attacking smithtb's comments and not Cohoangler's, not me. Now you even bring up more racism, singling out "southern white folks" as racists. Clearly you have an axe to grind when it comes to race.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Racism:

                    1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

                    2: racial prejudice or discrimination

                    The only thing racist about this discussion (as funstastic already pointed out) are the previously discussed programs that allow one group of people privileges or access not available to others based on race. Not location, as with some subsistence rules, but race. This, by definition, is racism pure and simple.

                    While my comments may have been insensitive, they were neither untrue nor racist. I have been accused of being insensitive before. Daily. While others' posts may have also been insensitive and or stereotypical relative to geographical area, they were neither untrue nor racist.

                    Regardless of our heritage or ancestry, we are all human. Selfishness and greed abound in ALL user groups. ALL OF THEM. Our fisheries resource belongs to ALL Alaskans, regardless of heritage, and we must be able to discuss the merits of all user groups and plans without losing focus or throwing out unreasonable accusations. Greey? Selfish? Sure. We all are.

                    Reminding someone from an AYK region village that they have the power to change their location and methods/means of securing food for the winter in my mind is no different than reminding a complaining setnetter that if they aren't happy with their fishery they can go fish somewhere else - which I've done plenty. Change can be a good thing. FORCING anyone to do anything is another situation entirely. It's an important point to keep in sight when discussing sustainability - no one should HAVE to harvest in a year of low abundance - abundance below a biological goals or sustainability threshold. We all have options...


                    So, to get back towards a productive discussion - has overharvest been ruled out in these systems? Is any of the Chinook initiative money going to studying these freshwater systems, or are they ignoring them the same as the Kenai?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Funstastic View Post
                      You had no business bringing up racism, or even mentioning anyone would think smithtb is a racist. So take your medicine...

                      "In fact, your comments border on racism which I know you are not but written words can be read only from the viewer perspective." - Nerka

                      "You can speak your mind - just be precise in what you mean because if one thinks you are being racist or generalize a whole user group falsely you lose the argument whether your point is valid or not." - Nerka

                      You are the one who decided what a racist comment was, not me. And you are the one who showed bias by attacking smithtb's comments and not Cohoangler's, not me. Now you even bring up more racism, singling out "southern white folks" as racists. Clearly you have an axe to grind when it comes to race.
                      You post a number of times correcting people shows tyour inability to see other's viewpoints and that you are always right. In this case you are not as the person reading the post gets to decide if the comments are racist or not as perception is what this is about. My comments above make my point. If people feel the comments are race based then they turn off. I have turned off to your comments a number of times because of your arrogance.

                      I do have a sensitivity to race based comments. I lived in the south for a number of years and saw it first hand so do not lecture me on racism. I lived in Lousiana and Georgia when white only restrooms and other public places still existed, even after the Civil Rights Act. I saw first hand what hidden racism looks like. You can say all you want but I doubt you ever lived in these areas and know of what I speak. So again please do not lecture me on racism and what it is or is not. You have no foundation for doing that.

                      Smithtb - you are being too sensitive . I was trying to help you understand why Mr. Fish and others may misread you comments and the reason why. As Funstastic failed to highlight above, which is typical of his attack mode, I said If one thinks that is the point which both you and Funstastic failed to grasp. It is not what he or you think. It is what the reader thinks because of the words used. I can tell you if I gave your comments to a native village most would react as Mr. Fish and I did - they were insensitive at the least and I think you recognize that.

                      Now you can go back to Carl Walters points if you want. I think this thread is over.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Nerka View Post
                        You post a number of times correcting people shows tyour inability to see other's viewpoints and that you are always right. In this case you are not as the person reading the post gets to decide if the comments are racist or not as perception is what this is about. My comments above make my point. If people feel the comments are race based then they turn off. I have turned off to your comments a number of times because of your arrogance.

                        I do have a sensitivity to race based comments. I lived in the south for a number of years and saw it first hand so do not lecture me on racism. I lived in Lousiana and Georgia when white only restrooms and other public places still existed, even after the Civil Rights Act. I saw first hand what hidden racism looks like. You can say all you want but I doubt you ever lived in these areas and know of what I speak. So again please do not lecture me on racism and what it is or is not. You have no foundation for doing that.

                        Smithtb - you are being too sensitive . I was trying to help you understand why Mr. Fish and others may misread you comments and the reason why. As Funstastic failed to highlight above, which is typical of his attack mode, I said If one thinks that is the point which both you and Funstastic failed to grasp. It is not what he or you think. It is what the reader thinks because of the words used. I can tell you if I gave your comments to a native village most would react as Mr. Fish and I did - they were insensitive at the least and I think you recognize that.

                        Now you can go back to Carl Walters points if you want. I think this thread is over.
                        Nerka, you're the one who saw things through racism, originally brought up ideas of racism, and suggested smithtb would be seen as a racist. You're the one who decided what comments were racist and told us how other people will view them. You're the one talking about "southern white folks" and Civil Rights. You're the one lecturing us on racism and making false assumptions about our experience and our exposure to it.

                        Racism never belonged in this discussion. You did that all on your own. You are simply attacking me because you don't like the fact I called you on it. You're bringing up the South in a discussion about the North because you're desperate for emotional distraction. We get it.

                        Listen close Nerka. My family was the ONLY white family in the Athabascan community where I spent the beginning of my childhood. When Alaska was still a Territory my parents were selected to work there - to help Alaskan natives. I was the only white boy in the school, on the van (bus), and on the playground. Because of my race, I was beat-up by native gangs, stripped down for my shoes and clothes, excluded from participating, ripped off for my money, and subject to racist verbal abuse. On more than one occasion I witnessed my parents defending our lives because "our kind" didn't belong there. My siblings were subject to sexual abuse and threats. My family was refused services, fuel, food, and faced lawless consequences just for hunting and fishing on what the natives called "their" public land. We were treated like lesser human beings, and we went without. All because we were "white folks".

                        That is why we left for a new life in South Central Alaska. So you can get off your high-horse and stop telling me what I know about racism. While you watched racism, I lived it. "Sensitivity?" It is you who has no clue.

                        I am sick and tired of people like you telling me how racist my race is, and how I must pay some debt in life just because you think my relatives and ancestors were racist 150 years ago. My white ancestors helped blacks, and like no other race in the world, my white race continues to help blacks, and all races. It is the white race that pays for, yet is excluded from, land and resource privileges, special health care benefits, financial subsidies, educational scholarships, employment preference, and so on - just because we are white. I am sick and tire being treated unequal and discriminated upon for the race I am.

                        Nerka, all you've done by crying racism is create more divisiveness to keep racism alive and well. Knock it off. Move on.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Funstastic View Post
                          Nerka, you're the one who saw things through racism, originally brought up ideas of racism, and suggested smithtb would be seen as a racist. You're the one who decided what comments were racist and told us how other people will view them. You're the one talking about "southern white folks" and Civil Rights. You're the one lecturing us on racism and making false assumptions about our experience and our exposure to it.

                          Racism never belonged in this discussion. You did that all on your own. You are simply attacking me because you don't like the fact I called you on it. You're bringing up the South in a discussion about the North because you're desperate for emotional distraction. We get it.

                          Listen close Nerka. My family was the ONLY white family in the Athabascan community where I spent the beginning of my childhood. When Alaska was still a Territory my parents were selected to work there - to help Alaskan natives. I was the only white boy in the school, on the van (bus), and on the playground. Because of my race, I was beat-up by native gangs, stripped down for my shoes and clothes, excluded from participating, ripped off for my money, and subject to racist verbal abuse. On more than one occasion I witnessed my parents defending our lives because "our kind" didn't belong there. My siblings were subject to sexual abuse and threats. My family was refused services, fuel, food, and faced lawless consequences just for hunting and fishing on what the natives called "their" public land. We were treated like lesser human beings, and we went without. All because we were "white folks".

                          That is why we left for a new life in South Central Alaska. So you can get off your high-horse and stop telling me what I know about racism. While you watched racism, I lived it. "Sensitivity?" It is you who has no clue.

                          I am sick and tired of people like you telling me how racist my race is, and how I must pay some debt in life just because you think my relatives and ancestors were racist 150 years ago. My white ancestors helped blacks, and like no other race in the world, my white race continues to help blacks, and all races. It is the white race that pays for, yet is excluded from, land and resource privileges, special health care benefits, financial subsidies, educational scholarships, employment preference, and so on - just because we are white. I am sick and tire being treated unequal and discriminated upon for the race I am.

                          Nerka, all you've done by crying racism is create more divisiveness to keep racism alive and well. Knock it off. Move on.
                          This speaks volumes why you reacted. Maybe time to examine your own bias and prejudice rather than mine. You have no right to lecture anyone on this topic - but as you said time to move on.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I'm not going to let you make this about me, or ruin this thread.

                            I reacted because your racism comments deserved reaction. Take responsibility.

                            You brought up racism.

                            You suggested smithtb would be seen as a racist.

                            You lectured us on racism.

                            You demonstrated prejudice and bias when you saw his post through the eyes of racism.

                            You continue to carry-on about racism.

                            Nerka, you've had every opportunity to stop your racism tirade and move on, but you seem hell-bent on keeping racism alive. So I will once again suggest you knock it off and move on.

                            Oh, and don't tell me what I have a right to say.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              You guys are both ruining the thread due to a personal spat over a sensitive subject. This coming from the insensitive guy. I keep trying to float new questions, ideas, and topics. Take the bait...

                              Comment

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