Russian River sockeye... where are they?

[willphish4food]

Almost to August, and escapement in Russian is just over 3,000 fish. 1/10 th of the minimum late run goal.... are we in trouble?

[willphish4food]

And once again, we see an inverse relationship between solid Fish Creek sockeye escapements in the Northern District, and weak escapements in the Russian and Kenai.

[Nerka]

And once again, we see an inverse relationship between solid Fish Creek sockeye escapements in the Northern District, and weak escapements in the Russian and Kenai.

or
willphish4food, stop this nonsense. There is no relationship between Fish Creek and Russian River or Kenai . Next you do not know anything about Russian river. It takes 10 days or more for fish to get to Russian River and thus it should just be starting. No need to say it is weak as between the commercial and sport harvest you have no idea what has been caught to date.

Russian River can be 10-30% of the Kenai return so with 700,000 fish in the system and more to come Russian River should make the goal. Slow steady entry means the same for Russian.

[willphish4food]

or
willphish4food, stop this nonsense. There is no relationship between Fish Creek and Russian River or Kenai . Next you do not know anything about Russian river. It takes 10 days or more for fish to get to Russian River and thus it should just be starting. No need to say it is weak as between the commercial and sport harvest you have no idea what has been caught to date.

Russian River can be 10-30% of the Kenai return so with 700,000 fish in the system and more to come Russian River should make the goal. Slow steady entry means the same for Russian.

Really, Nerka? I know you're an expert on all things Russian and Kenai, as you're always the first to admit. Why be worried that the to date weir count on the Russian is 4270 fish, as compared to 12,295, 8174, and 6423 for the prior 3 years. No evidence at all that its a weak run, is there? Posh...

[willphish4food]

Inverse relationship between fish creek and Kenai; here it is. Weak to average run of sockeye to Kenai, good to excellent return to Fish Creek. Strong and very strong run to Kenai, very weak return to Fish Creek. Whatever could cause that? What is the common denominator? Restricted commercial fishing hours on weak runs, liberalized hours on strong runs. Fish Creek sockeye are collateral damage to the race to squeeze every last commercial dollar from strong Kenai sockeye runs. There's a couple fellas on this forum that will rant and rave about what a crock that is, and how I'm all wet, yada yada. The numbers speak for themselves.

[Nerka]

Inverse relationship between fish creek and Kenai; here it is. Weak to average run of sockeye to Kenai, good to excellent return to Fish Creek. Strong and very strong run to Kenai, very weak return to Fish Creek. Whatever could cause that? What is the common denominator? Restricted commercial fishing hours on weak runs, liberalized hours on strong runs. Fish Creek sockeyre are collateral damage to the race to squeeze every last commercial dollar from strong Kenai sockeye runs. There's a couple fellas on this forum that will rant and rave about what a crock that is, and how I'm all wet, yada yada. The numbers speak for themselves.

This is just more nonsense - Fish Creek has huge production issues due to habitat issues, has had enhanced fish, and just has no relationship to Kenai or Russian River. Yes more fishing time for a large Kenai return may in some years reduce northern district stocks due to harvest but there is no consistent relationship. i would challenge you Willphish4food to provide any statistical relationship or is this just more emotion and misinformation coming from you. You do tend to have a tendency to shoot from the hip.

[willphish4food]

This is just more nonsense - Fish Creek has huge production issues due to habitat issues, has had enhanced fish, and just has no relationship to Kenai or Russian River. Yes more fishing time for a large Kenai return may in some years reduce northern district stocks due to harvest but there is no consistent relationship. i would challenge you Willphish4food to provide any statistical relationship or is this just more emotion and misinformation coming from you. You do tend to have a tendency to shoot from the hip.

Ah yes, fall back on "production issues." Supposedly the Big Lake and Meadow Lakes watersheds are too impaired for good production of salmon, and without hatchery stock cannot sustain runs. News flash. This year's run is entirely wild; zero enhancement.

Challenge me to support my position but show no support for your own; typical. Commercial drift and set net fishermen in the central district cannot prove that they do not have a negative impact on Northern District fish. Nerka, you have sources and time that I do not have. It should be very easy for you to find the evidence that says both fishing groups catch only Kenai and Kasilof fish during EO's that are justified by big runs of those fish, if that evidence exists.

[smithtb]

Ah yes, fall back on "production issues." Supposedly the Big Lake and Meadow Lakes watersheds are too impaired for good production of salmon, and without hatchery stock cannot sustain runs. News flash. This year's run is entirely wild; zero enhancement.

Challenge me to support my position but show no support for your own; typical. Commercial drift and set net fishermen in the central district cannot prove that they do not have a negative impact on Northern District fish. Nerka, you have sources and time that I do not have. It should be very easy for you to find the evidence that says both fishing groups catch only Kenai and Kasilof fish during EO's that are justified by big runs of those fish, if that evidence exists.

I would be surprised if there has not been genetic sampling through the years that would illustrate this issue if it exists. But it's easier not to check and just assume that the commercial fishermen are the problem, huh Willphish?

Yes, your Matsu reps use the same tactics. You should have seen them freak out when 2-stroke and horsepower restrictions showed a possibility of passing for the hydrocarbon tainted Little Sue. They had to depend on their alliances with our friendly "sportfish" reps and their plants on the board to call a convenient "break" to talk board members down.

Habitat? What's that? Don't you know boat motors are a social issue?

You should have seen the blank look on the KRSA/Matsu rep's faces when I asked them what habitat issues they were planning on addressing. "Huh?" If I wasn't so disgusted it would have been comical.

Ok, got in the weeds there but i think it illustrates my point. We are all guilty of looking to our favorite cause of a problem, but Willphish you take the cake.

[FishGod]

Really, Nerka? I know you're an expert on all things Russian and Kenai, as you're always the first to admit. Why be worried that the to date weir count on the Russian is 4270 fish, as compared to 12,295, 8174, and 6423 for the prior 3 years. No evidence at all that its a weak run, is there? Posh...

It's amazing how people forget the past. I remember the Russian River late sockeye run of 1992 like it was yesterday. The current run is tracking VERY similar to 1992. On that year, the sockeye held in Skilak for well over two weeks. We gave up on sockeye and went trout fishing sometime in early August on the Russian. Nobody was there since no fish had been present the last few days of July. The day we were trout fishing we were shocked at the shear numbers of sockeye storming up the Russian in early August. We caught our limit in ten minutes with nobody around. I encourage you to look at 1992.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/FishCounts/

[Nerka]

Ah yes, fall back on "production issues." Supposedly the Big Lake and Meadow Lakes watersheds are too impaired for good production of salmon, and without hatchery stock cannot sustain runs. News flash. This year's run is entirely wild; zero enhancement.

Challenge me to support my position but show no support for your own; typical. Commercial drift and set net fishermen in the central district cannot prove that they do not have a negative impact on Northern District fish. Nerka, you have sources and time that I do not have. It should be very easy for you to find the evidence that says both fishing groups catch only Kenai and Kasilof fish during EO's that are justified by big runs of those fish, if that evidence exists.

Those who make wild claims need to prove them. You made the claim so prove it with data. Denying Big Lake issues is just typical of what some in the Mat/Su do including yourself. Remember that Meadow Creek sockeye were eliminated because they spawned above the hatchery? Did you forget the outlet migration problems, or disease issues or temperature issues or septic issues.

Do commercial fisherman reduce fish headed north - duh of course. That is not what you claimed. You claimed production which is catch from all users and escapement by brood year.

[willphish4food]

Those who make wild claims need to prove them. You made the claim so prove it with data. Denying Big Lake issues is just typical of what some in the Mat/Su do including yourself. Remember that Meadow Creek sockeye were eliminated because they spawned above the hatchery? Did you forget the outlet migration problems, or disease issues or temperature issues or septic issues.

Do commercial fisherman reduce fish headed north - duh of course. That is not what you claimed. You claimed production which is catch from all users and escapement by brood year.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/FishCo...displayResults
The data is available for all to peruse... doesn't need hand holding... or it shouldn't. Its not a wild claim at all, as you admit too that commercial catches Northern District fish. the only debate is how many get intercepted, and if interception alone can make the difference between making minimum escapement goals and missing them.

[Nerka]

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/FishCo...displayResults
The data is available for all to peruse... doesn't need hand holding... or it shouldn't. Its not a wild claim at all, as you admit too that commercial catches Northern District fish. the only debate is how many get intercepted, and if interception alone can make the difference between making minimum escapement goals and missing them.

Willphish4food, fish counts are not estimates of production so your link does not support anything you claim. As I said earlier wild claims with no data to support them is just that wild claims. Also, for the record if you look at Fish Creek in the commercial drift catch it is a very low interception rate because of the small size of these fish. I looked at this in the past and most Fish Creek fish are not intercepted at all. But do not let data get in the way of your bias against the commercial fleet.

[Powerline]

Willphish4food, fish counts are not estimates of production so your link does not support anything you claim. As I said earlier wild claims with no data to support them is just that wild claims. Also, for the record if you look at Fish Creek in the commercial drift catch it is a very low interception rate because of the small size of these fish. I looked at this in the past and most Fish Creek fish are not intercepted at all. But do not let data get in the way of your bias against the commercial fleet.

You guys need to start a new thread about fish creek. This one is the Russian River

[4merguide]

Nobody was there since no fish had been present the last few days of July. The day we were trout fishing we were shocked at the shear numbers of sockeye storming up the Russian in early August. We caught our limit in ten minutes with nobody around.

That's right.........sometimes the fish just wait till nobody's looking.......lol

The newcomers these days are just spoiled by the last few years.......

[smithtb]

That's right.........sometimes the fish just wait till nobody's looking.......lol

The newcomers these days are just spoiled by the last few years.......

Roger that!