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  • #46
    Originally posted by Nerka View Post
    smithtb. Glad you are fishing but those outside a 1/2 mile are not fishing for chinook conservation and the Upper Beach are not fishing for chinook conservation and yet you are killing chinook for harvesting 20,000 sockeye within a half mile. The drift fleet is targeting Kasilof and Kenai and Susitna, The in-river sport fishery is going on with no bait. The in-river sockeye fishery is going strong. So why is it that only a select group is not fishing? It makes no sense with the half mile fishery. The half mile fishery probably takes more chinook than fishing from 1/2 mile out. The Upper beach chinook catch would probably be 50-100 fish or less given the recent sonar counts. So taking some Kenai and Kasilof sockeye would be worth the effort. Giving up 9 hours of fishing time for the whole beach is not a good move and using chinook conservation in the e.o is not justified when you fish within 1/2 mile. The 1/2 mile fishery was designed to protect Kenai sockeye not Kenai chinook.

    Relative to the counts for chinook it is not shocking they are lower right now. Given the NE winds and big tides. The real proof in the pudding will be after this week so I understand why ADF&G is waiting until latter in the week.

    Why the Department is not fishing in the Kasilof terminal area does not make any sense - there the fishery is pretty clean Kasilof sockeye and while it takes a couple of days to catch as much as the whole set net fishery it is much cleaner relative to Kenai chinook. No terminal fishery I believe is because some commercial fisherman got to ADF&G and pushed the 1/2 mile option even if it hurt the Upper Beach fisherman - the alternative hypothesis is that ADF&G is worried about Kasilof chinook but in that case fishing the 1/2 beach probably took more Kasilof and Kenai chinook.

    Not fishing anyone today also makes no sense. The drift fleet should be in the corridor - expanded or reduced but fishing. Why would they not be fishing? There is no issue with Kenai and Kasilof sockeye?

    smithtb - relative to your comment about staff telling you about chinook numbers it is selective discussion going on. Staff may tell some the actual numbers and others just vague comments about low numbers. If it is in an e.o that means they have the numbers and should put them out. The industry does their own analysis of what is going to happen so processors can divert resources to deal with what is coming. The idea that counts cannot be out for four days is just not acceptable from a business viewpoint or management viewpoint. Staff knows the numbers on a diaily basis and so should the public - all of the public. You cannot rule models with comments like low. That means nothing. Low to what- average run timing, late run timing, early run timing. The use of average run timing models is just not good management. One needs to figure out the run timing and adjust accordingly. Run timing is everything when it comes to management to goals for all species.
    Hot off the press :
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/ap.../452550204.pdf

    Going to kill every fish entering or swimming by the Kasilof river tonight.

    Nerka - I completely agree - it is not surprising that Chinook counts are low right now. But they are quite low, and ADFG is understandably nervous about making the goal. Hopefully, the low harvest and participation inriver, and low harvest and fishing time by ESSN's will help ADFG decide to leave the river open long enough to see if King counts come up substantially through the weekend as we both suspect they will.

    Not quite sure why you are convinced that southern ESSN's have conspired to hide/roll kings in order to drop their king harvest numbers while colluding with ADFG to get a half mile fishery and screw the northern beaches out of fishing time. Think what you want, but I have no knowledge of this, and since you are convinced I have all that inside information, one would think I would have heard about it by now. Sounds like you are not happy with some south beach fishermen and are speculating... again.

    The KRSHA may be clean relative to Kenai Kings (although we really have no clue as much of the drift harvest from this fishery is lumped in with regular openings. I have watched tons of boats make several sets inside the KRSHA and then motor out and set offshore), but it is most certainly NOT clean with respect to Kasilof Kings. I don't think that we should kill every King going into the Kasilof river just to save Kenai Kings.

    I am opposed to the KRSHA. I don't like that fishery, and would rather the Kasilof river was overescaped than that fishery be opened - that is my personal view, right or wrong and it will not change. It creates conflict and has no place in this fishery.

    I would have liked to see both Kenai and Kasilof fish the last couple of openers at whatever capacity deemed appropriate (1/2 mi, 600ft, 3-2-1 nets or 29mesh) however it did not happen despite my wishes. Not my call, not my fault. Stop instigating conflict within user groups and speculating on things about which you have no clue.

    I also agree that we need to know Chinook numbers more often than twice a week, and that a complete review of the Kenai Chinook program should be top priority for all fishermen, ADFG, and legislators. Not only would more timely counts help everyone, but it would likely cut down on the amount of inquiries for up to date information going through the local office. If you're not happy with the information provided to you by our local staff and feel that someone is "holding out" on you, perhaps you should bounce back to our "more flys with honey" discussion... However I do agree that everyone should be provided with consistent information in a timely manner.

    Nerka, as loud as you're yelling about this, there are other people yelling at ADFG saying exactly the opposite. No wonder they clam up - it's been my experience that you can only tell someone they're an idiot so many times before they quit talking to you.

    Ever heard of the Kobayashi Maru scenario? Pretty sure there's some UCI managers feeling that right now.

    Comment


    • #47
      For the record, the last Kasilof 1/2 mi opener harvested nearly 43,000 sockeye, not 20,000. The one before was nearly 30,000. Don't really know if king numbers are trustworthy, but they were 138 and 78, respectively. That means king harvest nearly doubled - a good thing. They are moving.

      Still would have liked to see the whole district fish - we have no clue how many of those fish were Kenai or Kasilof, and I have no doubt that many of the sites north of the Blanchard would have killed more Kasilof fish than some sites south of it.

      Here's the link - to prove I do not have "inside information":

      http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...arvest_current

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by smithtb View Post
        For the record, the last Kasilof 1/2 mi opener harvested nearly 43,000 sockeye, not 20,000. The one before was nearly 30,000. Don't really know if king numbers are trustworthy, but they were 138 and 78, respectively. That means king harvest nearly doubled - a good thing. They are moving.

        Still would have liked to see the whole district fish - we have no clue how many of those fish were Kenai or Kasilof, and I have no doubt that many of the sites north of the Blanchard would have killed more Kasilof fish than some sites south of it.

        Here's the link - to prove I do not have "inside information":

        http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...arvest_current
        Never implied you individually had insider information but that all of the public should know what the counts are and sooner than four days. I said some may have the counts. I think you said Bfish and KRSA probably had the daily counts - that is speculation.

        Relative to not having a clue I infer the same from some of your comments but that would not be productive to list them. The speculation you cite is not that at all. The area management biologist told me he got a number of calls from fisherman about not fishing the terminal area and using the half mile instead. He said those calls were also made to the Region and Headquarters staff. I also heard this from fisherman who do not like the terminal area - the desire to fish in the terminal area has to do with where one is located on the beach and whether one likes the competition - it is a management tool and as such a tool should be used when necessary and not when conditions change.


        I do not need to create conflict in the set net fishery they do that well all by themselves. I get lots of calls from other set net fisherman that are really upset about the lower beach fishing so much and they are not fishing. You live in a small world relative to the 1400 permit holders in UCI. You know it and I know that the set nets have not been able to get it together for years and the geographic distance along the beach leads to "they are catching my fish" syndrome - it so let be honest here. Fair Fishing tried to bring people together and so far that effort is a long way from being successful.

        Relative to rolling of kings the commercial fisherman who are doing it made it known to staff and the public. Not speculation at all. It is happening and the catch data support that finding. I am not happy with fisherman who think they can manage a fishery or do not care about others in the fishery. Remember the two fisherman who stated they do not care if their new gear proposal hurt others that they were going forward anyway. That attitude is what I am frustrated with - not the set net fisherman as a group. Your know that and so why try to make my comments more than what they are - a true statement about what people have said in public or to staff. Fishing 9 or 10 periods on the south beach and only 1 on the north beach is doing more to divide the set net fishery than I can ever do by posting on this forum. Lets get real here.

        Your more flies with honey discussion is kind of funny. How has that worked out for the industry? Some have tried to make that happen at the March meeting of the BOF, at the BOF meeting,with the Commissioner, with the Directors, and yet this is the third year in a row that the fishery has been managed poorly relative to in-season decision. The proof is in the actions taken to date and the escapement levels. You would not need the terminal area if fishing early and when few kings were on the beach had happened.

        Yes, everyone beats up on the staff - especially when they make bad calls. As I have said a mistake is going to happen a pattern of error is something different. No one who understands this fishery can understand given the data what they are thinking. When asked to explain the answer is the decisions are made above me or something that makes no sense.

        Also, having done the job for 20 years you develop thick skin and understand when someone is off base or has a point. It is part of the job of UCI. If you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen. The situation today is no different than in the 70's when commercial fisherman went directly to Juneau to manage the fishery. No different than during the subsistence battles, no different with ND set net fisherman vs the drift fleet, no different with the Mat/Su. Just different players with poorer skills and biological foundation to handle the pressure.

        No one said to kill every Kasilof king - your words and hype. But if you have limited hours then the terminal area is the better of the two worlds. One needs to keep those hours to kill 100,000 fish or more for those 178 kings you referenced. So whether it was 20,000 or 30,000 is not the point it is whether it is 3 to 4 times that amount. Also, there is a question of whether it was legal relative to the plans as written.

        smithtb - you know I have supported your industry for a long time, especially when the playing field turned fairness to something else. So not sure why you think you have the ability to question my motives. You have no clue here and part of the reason is that you are new to the world of fish politics and management. Sometimes it is better to listen and try to understand the history of the fishery, why decisions today are not consistent with good management practices, why fighting for an independent review of the whole chinook management program cannot be done with honey, and why the industry is in the state it is in today - both internally and externally. I do not claim to have all the answers but when you put four past management biologists in a room and they all say the same thing and all reject the idea of making this work with honey one should listen. History is full of failed honey options but a number of success with peaceful confrontation or civil disorder.

        Kobayashi Maru scenario - as a Star Trek fan who actually watch original episodes the situation with ADF&G is not a no-win. However, you do know Kirk beat the scenario by reprogramming the computer. The reason for the test was to check for original thinking. Some of that would do ADF&G well right now. However, the management of resources is not a no win. ADF&G wins by following sound management practices and measuring results on the biological outcomes and social impacts. The constitution says for the public good so social issues are part of the equation. It does not mean every user gets their way or that threats to ADF&G budget should have any weight in the decision making. ADF&G wins when they walk away from the season with integrity of ADF&G intact. If not they lose. Simple as that.

        Comment


        • #49
          Yes, fishermen close to the terminal area - especially those north of the Blanchard - may prefer it. And those who employ thugs who threaten to beat people up and burn down their cabins in order to protect their highline sets that they illegally stake out months before season like it even more. Yes, that happens.

          Overwhelmingly, Kasilof ESSN's, (along with anyone else fishing the Kasilof) do not like this alternate fishery, and would rather fish more in June, which would be a much better option for everyone AND for Kings headed to both rivers. I know you agree there, and that it is now too late for that this year. My argument against the terminal and for perhaps trying the 600ft option was in June and would have been effective then.

          I do respect your efforts - and knowledge. My frustration lies with the latter part of your post. Interesting that you defend the "heat", infighting, and aggression with the fact that it has always been that way, label a continued effort at a different approach by myself and others as failed and na´ve since we have not been in the trenches long enough, then in the next paragraph suggest ADFG try some original thinking...?

          Anywhoo, our banter is not all that productive either at this point... I just think there's a way to be effective without burning the whole village so to speak.

          Would love to hear more about the theories surrounding king and sockeye movement relative to wind and tide cycle. I always wondered if moon phase had any effect.

          I wonder if all the money spend on acoustical tagging to this point has helped with understanding this? Not being sarcastic, serious question.

          Comment


          • #50
            Just want to say Nerka that I think it would be great if the kenai beach was open with the kasilof beach, but currently the sockeye numbers up north just don't seem to add up to a kenai opener. No big slugs moving to the beach yet. I wish there was for the kenai setnetters because I have a feeling come Friday the new 12 hour EO will come out for the future week. Its unfortunate for them, but it looks like the kenai sockeye aren't going to come in big until after or around the 20th.

            30-40,000 fish openers for the Kasilof Beach are good days. Some of those are probably Kenai fish, but I got a look at a recent catch from the beach and I can say it looked there were a lot of pull through fish through 5" mesh. Higher numbers of kenai fish usually equals more shakers than pullers.

            I have confidence in the LR kenai kings because looking at king counts around Cook Inlet nearly every river which tracks escapement is close to or exceeded last year, except the Anchor (which is interesting), just from my fishing experience I feel the bulk of the LR kings now come in the last 10 days of July or so and August. With the super moon tides its not really surprising that king counts were slow, especially if many were smaller harder to detect kings, but I did hear the fishing report on the radio the other day say there was a pretty good king bite. So maybe there is hope. If southwest winds keep up and drifters can no longer hit the big schools down south and in the middle, barring an EO out of the management plan, and sockeye come in strong with only 1 12 hour period for setnetters it will be interesting to see what happens.

            Comment


            • #51
              smithtb - just for the record I said Fair Fishing is trying and is a long way from successful. I did not say they failed at this point, only that you cannot say they are successful. The effort is a good one.

              Also, I did not defend the infighting only that ADF&G has dealt with it since the 70's and therefore the present staff is not facing anything different than past management staffs.

              I know we agree on the June part of the fishery and have defended the fishing time to upper beach fisherman. I am not saying you should not have fished.

              From a management perspective if there are few kings on the beach then fish the whole beach and take more sockeye. The idea that one can wait until a push of fish and meet goals is nonsense. First, sockeye come into the district and then hold for 4-8 days or more until about mid-July. The mid point of the return at Anchor Point is around July 15th on average. Those fish coming prior to July 15th constitute the first pulse of fish and if you wait for that pulse your banking on them coming in a large pulse. They do not always do that. However, lets say they do and you take 50% or them which requires perfect timing and processor capability. The problem is the next half of the return. They move through the district is 1-2 days and come directly to the river. There is never a pulse like the first half of the return. To harvest them is a grind. Now comes the rub. The chinook numbers are down so you only have 12 hours or less per week to harvest these fish - if the forecast is correct it will be about 2 million fish. So in this case you have to fish more on the first part when chinook are still low on the beach as you cannot grind out on the back half- the Kenai sockeye are passing at 20,000 per day so taking fish now is critical. Giving up 15 hours last week was a mistake and using 9 hours for the 1/2 mile was a mistake. I am afraid the first pulse will come on Friday window and ADF&G does not have the balls to go outside the plan. We will see.

              The next mistake was just made not putting the drift fleet out in the corridor on Weds. Every fish killed by the drift fleet is critical right now. The reason given was they would not catch much - who knows that and since when does staff make decisions on what the drift fleet may or may not catch?

              Then today the mistakes keep adding up. The chinook run is looking like it will force a 12 hour limitation. ADF&G is not really sure how many sockeye are out there but the set nets are probably not going to be able to grind out the second half. Therefore the drift fleet needs to kill a bunch of fish quickly. Thursday should be a district-wide period. If they go out and take 1000-1200 fish per boat and they should if the run is on forecast that is 600,000 sockeye in the harvest. It also reduces the flood of fish to the river. Concern for ND coho is not an issue right now and ND sockeye have been protected with actions taken to date. One district-wide period can tell a lot about this run. if the boats come in with less than a 1000 fish per boat I would say Kenai sockeye are not on forecast and that reduces tension for everyone. It is critical at this point in the season to know what one is managing in terms of numbers. A district-wide period also calibrates the OTF program.

              What is disturbing is that staff put on the recording that they are waiting for the first pulse of fish and what happens if it does not appear until next week which has happened in the past or 800,000 fish come in August like 2006. These plans cannot be so restrictive that it makes ADF&G impotent with management calls.

              So yes some of us who have managed this fishery are critical right now because we know that decisions are being made above the area office again in 2014 and by people who have no clue what they are doing. smithtb - I want to burn the village as it is ripe with disease and the corpses keep adding up and infecting younger staff. I hope the upcoming election provides the spark for that fire.

              Comment


              • #52
                Pretty crazy not to fish on a weekday after making the decision to fish every one through the weekend, regardless of effects on personal use weekenders. Also crazy to manage fisheries that effect all fish in the inlet based primarily on what is happening in two rivers of the inlet.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Yes, it is pretty crazy to manage the fishery biologically, rather than provide a bounty for all of you dip netters on your days off? Hope your having fun down at the river, the you tube video of the boat traffic dipping the low tide was entertaining! As always, WF, thanks for adding your insightful opinion.
                  Now on a serious note, maybe we can get back to discussion about late run kings. I talked to a Kenai guide yesterday. He is releasing all of his clients fish, but most of his peers are bonking them. The private pressure is very low, but some are still trying to kill the golden goose. We should see a bump in king numbers as the tides ebb, but not enough to prevent catch and release. After this weekend, we don't see a small tide series until the first week of August. I think we will see a pretty good number of kings entering that week. I have felt for years that the king run timing would shift due to the July 31 closure, and lack of fishing pressure after that. This year may be a good year to test that theory.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by akcarv View Post
                    Yes, it is pretty crazy to manage the fishery biologically, rather than provide a bounty for all of you dip netters on your days off? Hope your having fun down at the river, the you tube video of the boat traffic dipping the low tide was entertaining! As always, WF, thanks for adding your insightful opinion.
                    Now on a serious note, maybe we can get back to discussion about late run kings. I talked to a Kenai guide yesterday. He is releasing all of his clients fish, but most of his peers are bonking them. The private pressure is very low, but some are still trying to kill the golden goose. We should see a bump in king numbers as the tides ebb, but not enough to prevent catch and release. After this weekend, we don't see a small tide series until the first week of August. I think we will see a pretty good number of kings entering that week. I have felt for years that the king run timing would shift due to the July 31 closure, and lack of fishing pressure after that. This year may be a good year to test that theory.
                    You can shift run timing with the closure on July 31st - Also, the early part of the run is probably exploited at a much higher rate as they are exposed to the fishery for 30 days. It would be better to have the fishery be a pass through fishery and limited below river mile 12. Anything above that is safe. It is sad we can never have that discussion in the present but will have it in the future when the run is all screwed up and people want to know why?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Kenai goes to barbless and C&R for kings this Saturday...

                      http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/EONR/index.cfm?ADFG=region.NR&NRID=1997


                      Through July 16, indices used to assess inriver king salmon abundance indicate a run that is below average. The sustainable escapement goal (SEG) for Kenai River late-run king salmon is 15,000 to 30,000 king salmon. The DIDSON sonar estimate of cumulative king salmon passage into the Kenai River through July 15 was 3,208 fish. The sport harvest of king salmon in the Kenai River as estimated by an in-season creel survey was 404 fish. At the current rate of passage and harvest, the sonar estimates indicate the escapement goal may not be achieved.


                      "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
                      sigpic
                      The KeenEye MD

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Overdue, but at least it is a start. Nerka, I like the pass thru idea, but I would rather see a complete closure the first part of July. Very few "late" run fish are present. This would give time for late, early run fish, to get upriver. We could then start fishing the late run conservatively , maybe the 10th or so, and only below Slikok. Would This would give plenty of time to better assess run strength etc.. If numbers are ok, there would be no reason not to then fish the first ten days of August, but only in the tidewater, say Eagle Rock and below. Give up ten days of scratch fishing in early July, but gain ten days of potentially good fishing in August. If numbers aren't there, close it down July 31. This would also stop the reporting of early run fish killed in July as late run fish.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by akcarv View Post
                          Overdue, but at least it is a start. Nerka, I like the pass thru idea, but I would rather see a complete closure the first part of July. Very few "late" run fish are present. This would give time for late, early run fish, to get upriver. We could then start fishing the late run conservatively , maybe the 10th or so, and only below Slikok. Would This would give plenty of time to better assess run strength etc.. If numbers are ok, there would be no reason not to then fish the first ten days of August, but only in the tidewater, say Eagle Rock and below. Give up ten days of scratch fishing in early July, but gain ten days of potentially good fishing in August. If numbers aren't there, close it down July 31. This would also stop the reporting of early run fish killed in July as late run fish.
                          The sport fishery should continue into August below Eagle Rock or there about. I agree that opening on July 1st makes little sense if one is trying to protect tributary spawning fish.

                          These discussion should have happened at the Board of Fish and from ADF&G. It is sad that did not happen as everyone was trying to figure out how to make bad plans even worse.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Seems like ADF&G looks at the July 31 date as something that was handed down on stone tablets. Not sure that's justified.

                            Reducing the opportunity in early July, but extending the season into August makes alot of sense, if the target fishery is LR Chinook.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cohoangler View Post
                              Seems like ADF&G looks at the July 31 date as something that was handed down on stone tablets. Not sure that's justified. Reducing the opportunity in early July, but extending the season into August makes alot of sense, if the target fishery is LR Chinook.
                              Great thinking like fish game does I looked at web for late king and if the harvest is added to the number they have in the river there still are not enough late kings so what difference does it make to fish early and close it or not fish and not open it i am sure that is the best maybe you could wait til August to start a season just after or before they turn red. Maybe fish 2 days with dip nets like fish and game likes.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Cohoangler View Post
                                Seems like ADF&G looks at the July 31 date as something that was handed down on stone tablets. Not sure that's justified.
                                Exactly......there's a little thing called "climate change" and I have to think it "may" have a little something to do with how late the fish have been showing up these days.....
                                Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

                                Comment

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