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  • Nerka
    replied
    Originally posted by kimjn View Post
    Cormit, yes that may be so but there are still relatively large numbers of fish caught in July to impact what's left of the run. Again, if the run collapses where do we stand in our priorities? Are we willing to stop methods that target OR catch them in big enough numbers to put the fish at risk? It's really a simple and straightforward question I think. Asked for a plan B but in three days not a single suggestion! Is that because the guides and commercials on this site don't even think that far? Don't care? Never think it could happen? If the traditional methods shuts down perhaps you would dream of the opportunity to harvest fish with a dipnet... Modified fish traps, shallow in-river nets of some sort?
    kumjn, I do not think people want to go there because of fear that someone will make it for even good runs. However, not being a commercial fisherman I can post without fear of the unknown - which is real and i respect that feeling in commercial fisherman (look at the set net ban proposal).

    So here are some options with qualifiers. First, I must assume we can count chinook correctly for management. That does not mean to the fish but plus or minus 20%. Second, that not meeting the MSY goal is a collapse. A collapse would be much lower. I would think around 10 thousand fish would start to get people talking about alternative harvest methods. Prior to this I think ADF&G can selectively close the fisheries and manage sockeye for most returns under 3.5 million or half of them. Above that one has to trade off sockeye and chinook goals depending on the trends.

    So lets assume we are in the alternative methods discussion and have pasted legal hurdles. First, I would assume that more drift gill net permits could be issued or the restriction on set nets being anchored removed. Thus set net fisherman could drift and areas close to the beach closed. While ND folks would scream about coho if the fishery was structured right it could work. 1200 drift permits is a lot of fishing power. The second option is to use seines as that is already a legal gear in UCI. The BOF could open the Upper Inlet in more areas to seines (some areas of the inlet are already open). I have used them to catch fish in the UCI for tagging and while not perfect they do work. Again, adjustments to permit holders and gear fishing times would have to be worked out.

    These two options do not require a constitutional change and may be able to be done via Limited Entry Commission, the Board of Fish, and ADF&G.

    Leave a comment:


  • cormit
    replied
    Originally posted by cormit View Post
    Like kimjn said ..... there are hundreds of posts on this topic ....
    Meant to say "Like hoose35 said.

    Leave a comment:


  • Akbrownsfan
    replied
    jc

    kimjn respectfully, if you ask a straight question then maybe you'll get a straight answer. What problem are you aiming to solve? More fish for in-river use? If so why? Personally to be clear, I was fine with the management plans of the recent past. I had no issues with allocation in times or low or high abundance. It's only fairly recently that one group has grown at the expense of all others in impact and political input.

    Leave a comment:


  • cormit
    replied
    Originally posted by kimjn View Post
    Cormit, yes that may be so but there are still relatively large numbers of fish caught in July to impact what's left of the run. Again, if the run collapses where do we stand in our priorities? Are we willing to stop methods that target OR catch them in big enough numbers to put the fish at risk? It's really a simple and straightforward question I think. Asked for a plan B but in three days not a single suggestion! Is that because the guides and commercials on this site don't even think that far? Don't care? Never think it could happen? If the traditional methods shuts down perhaps you would dream of the opportunity to harvest fish with a dipnet... Modified fish traps, shallow in-river nets of some sort?
    Like kimjn said ..... there are hundreds of posts on this topic .... enough to keep you reading for days. Long and short is Kenai Kings are being pounded relentlessly while in the river trying to spawn. If you're not interested in bringing relief to the spawning grounds ..... you're not really interested in saving kings.

    Leave a comment:


  • hoose35
    replied
    Originally posted by kimjn View Post
    Cormit, yes that may be so but there are still relatively large numbers of fish caught in July to impact what's left of the run. Again, if the run collapses where do we stand in our priorities? Are we willing to stop methods that target OR catch them in big enough numbers to put the fish at risk? It's really a simple and straightforward question I think. Asked for a plan B but in three days not a single suggestion! Is that because the guides and commercials on this site don't even think that far? Don't care? Never think it could happen? If the traditional methods shuts down perhaps you would dream of the opportunity to harvest fish with a dipnet... Modified fish traps, shallow in-river nets of some sort?
    Do a bit of research on here. There are more suggestions on what needs or should be done than one wants to read about. I like your almighty, you are the only one that cares stance, it's sure to bring the kings back


    Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk

    Leave a comment:


  • kimjn
    replied
    Cormit, yes that may be so but there are still relatively large numbers of fish caught in July to impact what's left of the run. Again, if the run collapses where do we stand in our priorities? Are we willing to stop methods that target OR catch them in big enough numbers to put the fish at risk? It's really a simple and straightforward question I think. Asked for a plan B but in three days not a single suggestion! Is that because the guides and commercials on this site don't even think that far? Don't care? Never think it could happen? If the traditional methods shuts down perhaps you would dream of the opportunity to harvest fish with a dipnet... Modified fish traps, shallow in-river nets of some sort?

    Leave a comment:


  • cormit
    replied
    Originally posted by kimjn View Post
    Thanks guys, nerka especially. I see the numbers made escapement, at least what we think went up the river based on those sonars. But also keep reading about guides doing very poorly and not seeing much fish. I think it may not really be just numbers but the unique size of these kings. Genetically unique? Not many of those big hogs left from what I understand. So the question may actually be if the big fish are being wiped to near extinction, and they are unique to the race of kings, what is of priority? Is it a priority to continue fishing as we are (guides and commercials) or to save the big fish. If big kings are disappearing then the priority needs to be to shut down anything that targets them or at least catch them in big enough numbers to put the run at risk. That's why I was brining up the point of what's plan B??? Trying to have an open and honest conversation here that will bring forth clarity. No one has made any suggestions for a Plan B if the run collapses. Hope for sure it never happens but the fish come back in big numbers. Like I said status quo is not an option, ethically speaking. Thanks.
    Commercial fishermen do not target big kings. Guides do.

    Leave a comment:


  • kimjn
    replied
    Thanks guys, nerka especially. I see the numbers made escapement, at least what we think went up the river based on those sonars. But also keep reading about guides doing very poorly and not seeing much fish. I think it may not really be just numbers but the unique size of these kings. Genetically unique? Not many of those big hogs left from what I understand. So the question may actually be if the big fish are being wiped to near extinction, and they are unique to the race of kings, what is of priority? Is it a priority to continue fishing as we are (guides and commercials) or to save the big fish. If big kings are disappearing then the priority needs to be to shut down anything that targets them or at least catch them in big enough numbers to put the run at risk. That's why I was brining up the point of what's plan B??? Trying to have an open and honest conversation here that will bring forth clarity. No one has made any suggestions for a Plan B if the run collapses. Hope for sure it never happens but the fish come back in big numbers. Like I said status quo is not an option, ethically speaking. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nerka
    replied
    Kimjn - just want to be clear that I am not saying chinook stocks are down and that management actions are needed. I just think ADF&G has the flexibility to manage low returns and make the trade offs that are necessary in a mixed stock fishery. For example having one large escapement of sockeye for chinook is not a management failure. However, having a number of them to meet an MSY goal for chinook is. Therefore, when one goal takes priority over all other goals then ADF&G is not doing its job. In fact, they have been very loose with their biological justifications for political actions. Saying the lower end of an MSY goals takes priority over all other goals and upper end of those goals is pure bull.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nerka
    replied
    kimjn- I understand that if 100 percent of the chinook made it to the river one may think problem solved. Not so. Bob Penney and KRSA have made it very clear they want no set nets period. They will use coho next to make a case for their elimination. Having been around for also 4 decades of this there is no doubt in my mind that Mr. Penney is a win/lose personality. He will destroy this community to win in my opinion.

    So I keep coming back to defining the issue. In 2012 it was ADF&G management error that created the problem. If you remember after the season the escapement of late run was 28K and the goal is 15-30K. So ADF&G ignored some of us who were trying to tell them they screwed up. The Directors have admitted this post season and you will notice in 2013 they did a better job.

    So I guess I would ask you the question on what exactly is the problem? Is it ADF&G and BOF inability to count fish and manage the resource, is it allocation greed, or is there really no problem and a good fishery manager would state that in public.. Just some food for thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • Akbrownsfan
    replied
    Solutions to what exactly? 10-15% of the harvest being taken by set-net in a mixed stock fishery? Is that wrong somehow? Maybe the Chinook show up this year in better numbers and bigger fish, and there is no emergency to offer "solutions" to for LR Chinook.

    Remember ER fish are not involved in set-net harvest so the time periods most in need of actual discussion are not impacted by commercial fishing bogeymen.

    Any discussion about set nets and Chinooks is about LR Chinook (that made escapement) and that then is allocation plain and simple. If someone wants more they need to say it, and then let the laws and process decide.

    Leave a comment:


  • kimjn
    replied
    Well I guess I should've expected some strong emotions to come out attempting to bring up the point of alternative means of commercial harvest. Thank you to the few that took the time to politely explain how dip netting in its current form wouldn't work to replace set netting. Makes sense and point well taken! Really was never my intention of claiming a bigger peice of the pie for myself. Quite opposite actually. If the methods and techniques used were more friendly to kings commercial seasons could be longer with more sockeye harvested. Makes total sense to me! We might have avoided what the set netters experienced a couple of years ago, right? So don't shoot or ridicule the messenger, how about coming up with solutions? Or is American ingenuity dead? In my view if things don't change in the future, commercial fishing as we know it in Cook Inlet it is dead. The canary may be singing but is anyone listening? Judging by what I see in this thread, nope. I can see why some may think that the death of the kings runs in the Kenai would be the best thing that could happen. Management would be soooo much easier! Unless the feds somhow step in and shut everybody down.

    How about it, any solutions? Please be creative and positive and stop attacking each other. Thanks guys!

    Leave a comment:


  • Funstastic
    replied
    Originally posted by smithtb View Post
    Right. Ok. So me being a commie is my position, not my occupation. That's much better. So it's not that I commercial fish, it's the position I take that makes me a "commie".

    I HAVE NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT BEING A COMMERCIAL FISHERMEN, AND MY FEELINGS AREN'T HURT. I would love for you to tell me where I'm off base.

    What's with the labels, anyway? Like I don't value or never choose to sport or PU fish? What the heck do you think I do the 46 weekends a year that I don't "commie" fish? How the heck do you think I got my "lousy 30 fish" in 2012? I sent my wife over the bluff with chest waders and a dipnet. She had a blast, and didn't blame someone else when she stood there for 4 hours and only got 4 fish. She thought it was awesome, despite the fact that she got a little muddy and wet...

    Whop, my position is not one of a "commie". It is one of a life-long KP resident who has grown up fishing. Commercial, sport, PU. Like a TON of people who live here, I've done a little of everything. Should you choose to label me, like your friends at KRSA do every time I publically comment on something, that's your choice. Obviously you all feel that labeling someone as a "Setnetter" or a "Commie" discredits them somehow. Maybe you could give us all big red "C's" to sew on our coats?

    Yeah Nerka, I remember the subsistence beach net fishery because I participated in that fishery with my family for years, like many other locals. I rather liked that fishery - I've always felt like the investment required (time, gear, and know-how) was a good thing. It helped curb the very attitude that TheWhop represents. It required that people prepare and learn a little bit about how to set a net, how to safely fish the net, how to pound a stake, how to use a block, HOW TO READ A FREAKING TIDE BOOK, etc. One's success depended on it.

    TheWhop - I think we should manage our rivers to the escapement levels predicted to provide the largest sustained yield. Within that management I feel that there should be reasonable opportunity and limits for the sport, commercial, and PU fishery combined. Reasonable limits means that no, the entire state should not be able to harvest PU fish from one or two rivers. With reasonable, healthy limits on our fisheries, and with an understanding that we cannot allow unlimited access to a limited resource, and that our escapement goals have two sides to them, there is a way to manage our fisheries to give everyone reasonable opportunity.

    However if you continue to endorse those seeking to eliminate commercial fishing altogether by supporting their lies, untruths, and false labels and regurgitating them to your membership, that will never happen. Calling them like you see them... You can do better than that!
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to smithtb again." +1

    Leave a comment:


  • Nerka
    replied
    tbsmith - I know you wife and I bet you have never sent her anywhere - she may have sent you somewhere at times.

    Sometimes things just get lost in the moment. The word commie was used by some at first in a very insulting way. The reference to communism is not lost on most. However, over time people started to refer or use it in a different sense. I do not think those who called people dippers had a lot of love in their hearts when it was first used. Somehow set netter or drifter is fine. I just think typing out commercial or dip net fishery is not that hard and if a word hurts someone it should be dropped.

    But back to fishery management. Funstastic did not suggest a weir and I think he knows the problems with it. A weir is very costly -3.5 million to install in 1983 dollars. Annual operating costs are significant. Fish quality is poor, it is a social program if money is distributed without any work by commercial permit holders, and it probably would not work given that 1 million fish could hit the weir on a couple of tides if there was no set net fishery. In summary, the set net fishery has evolved because it works well for commercial fishing and taking only 10-15 % of the chinook return it is very clean.

    So I find the whole discussion to be somewhat silly from a management viewpoint. I would submit that an independent group looking at UCI allocation battles would be shocked at the way it has devolved to the point of being ugly and not oriented to good scientific management of the resources.

    Leave a comment:


  • smithtb
    replied
    Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
    I use the word "commie" not as an insult but as a position. Smith, you are wayyyyy off base. I am not entitled to any fish but if there is an excese, I think any Alaskan in entitled to maybe go down and try to snag a few' I have many friends that commercial fish out of Cordova and we still have a great friendship 20 years in the making. That said, I am not entitled to some fish but neither are you, u just bought access, nothing more.. Stop whining, I'm not entitled but neither are you. Thank you again Nerka. I'm not against commercial fishing, just think that the average Alaskan wants some fish and should be entitled to some anyway
    Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
    If you have your feelings hurt, I will be the first one to by you a beer, TB, Just calling it like I see it. Will be down next month to kill some time. PM me with a cell number. thewhop2000
    Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
    Sticks and stones.... get a grip dude. Commie is a position, not a yard job. I'm a dipper, you don't see me whining cause I am one?

    Right. Ok. So me being a commie is my position, not my occupation. That's much better. So it's not that I commercial fish, it's the position I take that makes me a "commie".

    I HAVE NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT BEING A COMMERCIAL FISHERMEN, AND MY FEELINGS AREN'T HURT. I would love for you to tell me where I'm off base.

    What's with the labels, anyway? Like I don't value or never choose to sport or PU fish? What the heck do you think I do the 46 weekends a year that I don't "commie" fish? How the heck do you think I got my "lousy 30 fish" in 2012? I sent my wife over the bluff with chest waders and a dipnet. She had a blast, and didn't blame someone else when she stood there for 4 hours and only got 4 fish. She thought it was awesome, despite the fact that she got a little muddy and wet...

    Whop, my position is not one of a "commie". It is one of a life-long KP resident who has grown up fishing. Commercial, sport, PU. Like a TON of people who live here, I've done a little of everything. Should you choose to label me, like your friends at KRSA do every time I publically comment on something, that's your choice. Obviously you all feel that labeling someone as a "Setnetter" or a "Commie" discredits them somehow. Maybe you could give us all big red "C's" to sew on our coats?

    Yeah Nerka, I remember the subsistence beach net fishery because I participated in that fishery with my family for years, like many other locals. I rather liked that fishery - I've always felt like the investment required (time, gear, and know-how) was a good thing. It helped curb the very attitude that TheWhop represents. It required that people prepare and learn a little bit about how to set a net, how to safely fish the net, how to pound a stake, how to use a block, HOW TO READ A FREAKING TIDE BOOK, etc. One's success depended on it.

    TheWhop - I think we should manage our rivers to the escapement levels predicted to provide the largest sustained yield. Within that management I feel that there should be reasonable opportunity and limits for the sport, commercial, and PU fishery combined. Reasonable limits means that no, the entire state should not be able to harvest PU fish from one or two rivers. With reasonable, healthy limits on our fisheries, and with an understanding that we cannot allow unlimited access to a limited resource, and that our escapement goals have two sides to them, there is a way to manage our fisheries to give everyone reasonable opportunity.

    However if you continue to endorse those seeking to eliminate commercial fishing altogether by supporting their lies, untruths, and false labels and regurgitating them to your membership, that will never happen. Calling them like you see them... You can do better than that!

    Leave a comment:

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