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  • #16
    Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
    Funtastic, You are wrong, this dipnet fishery is a result of a court ruling on subsistence, years ago and what the BOF decided. Thanks Nerka, for the clarification. If anyone of you think all Alaskans need to buy their fish through a fish broker, get a life. I have lived up here for 35 years and deserve a lousy 30 fish that I can dipnet, each year if they are available. due to over escapement. Sorry, If I had the time I could catch that with a pole but normally I don't have time. Thank you mother nature and the state of Alaska, All the commercial whiners, are just that, sorry to say. You bought a share of an Alaska commercial permit but was not guareenteed a certain amount of fish, fat fingers I know. That being said, there is enough of reds to go to all users but some see this as taking "their fare share" away from them. Short sighted and pretty selfish too. Call it like I see them. Going to the slope tomorrow so if you want to argue, won't see it till three weeks later. Alaskans should benefit from Alaskan resources, IMO
    And being able to buy fresh, bled salmon for under $3.00 a pound isn't a benefit? Having well paying, demanding jobs that help turn our kids into tough adults isn't a benefit? That $1G a week I spend at Costco just on food in the summer doesn't benefit someone?

    You deserve those fish - exactly the mentality that we here on the Kenai love our visitors to have. It makes them so polite, flexible, and easy to deal with. Say for instance the fish hit on a weekday instead of a weekend - someone with that attitude would just blame their lack of weekend success on their own poor timing rather than someone else, right? I suppose your Winnebago 'deserves' two feet of my lane as well?

    So, you you are a busy working person who doesn't have time to rod and reel fish. You refuse to buy your fish from a commercial vendor despite the fact that you could more predictably buy them at comparable expense to driving here and catching them yourself.

    You think that the tens of thousands of people already dipping this way, and the 600,000 fish they already harvest is not enough, and you campaign for more access and priority in a fully allocated fishery - at a cost to our existing sport and commercial fisheries and the communities they support. For goodness sake, you don't even stop to correct the bumbling idiots who blame ADFG or the 'commies' because they picked a poor day to dip, or when they look at us cross-eyed and say "I don't believe in overescapement because my buddy Ricky-bobbie told me that it's not true". No, instead you side with the organizations looking to end commercial fishing in UCI altogether.

    A LOUSY 30 FISH? Really. Glad to know you have so much respect for our valuable resource. That's like $450.00 worth of wholesale salmon - much more on the retail market. Had I referred to or treated our fish this way growing up my grandpa'da slapped me silly.

    Have fun at the slope. I hope you're going there to earn your money rather than to show up thinking you deserve it...

    Willphish, sorry I referred to you in my last post. I meant Whop.

    Comment


    • #17
      tbsmith calm down friend. It was actually commercial fisherman and sport fisherman that helped create this problem in the first place. Back in the 70's before you knew what a salmon was the BOF controlled by commercial fisherman and the one sport fish representative started to systematically reduce subsistence areas in Cook Inlet and other areas to less productive fishing zones. Kind of like what is happening to the commercial fishery today. Small area and less productive fishing areas.

      Natives saw this and realized that only the federal government and courts could help them out. The State was bent on limiting subsistence. I will not go into all the court cases but there is a history of this in a document ADF&G prepared for UCI. The final straw was when the BOF limited subsistence to the area north of Boulder Point in the rock patch. It is called starvation beach up there for a reason.

      So when the court ruled that the State could not do this then the BOF needed to create opportunity for this displaced group and created the PU fishery and a gill net fishery at the mouth of the Kasilof. This was then expanded to the whole beach. Commercial fisherman instead of working with PU fisherman joined forces with Bob Penney (yes I know that sounds weird) to remove the gill net fishery from the beach to the river mouth - commercial fisherman who were short sighted did not want to share the beach and Penney wanted chinook released. End result a group that had been displaced over decades now had a fishery at the mouth of the river that commercial and sport fisherman thought could not grow much -they limited it to only when escapements exceeded the upper goal and give it a low priority.

      So what happens when people get upset with being treated unfairly. They organized and became a force. You are seeing the result of poor decision making by the commercial industry and the backlash from a group of PU fisherman that know that commercial and sport are not their friends. They have joined with sport now as they have first shot at the fish if the commercial is gone.

      Rather than fight the PU fisherman which is a losing battle the discussion should be around how to allocate the resource fairly and have the various groups be sustainable at some level for various run strengths. Bob Penney does not want that as he is trying to eliminate the commercial fishery and using the PU as a reason for less harvest. The Whop is still reacting to the history of the past 40 years and with some justification. And commercial fisherman who had control of the BOF at one point and refused to modify it when others said it was unfair are now calling foul when it is happening to them. So this complex mess of human greed expresses itself in a variety of ways. You are too young to have experienced this history but you are seeing the results when a system turns on a user group - you just happen to be the user group under fire right now from the prejudice of the majority.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
        Funtastic, You are wrong, this dipnet fishery is a result of a court ruling on subsistence, years ago and what the BOF decided.
        No, I am not wrong. The court ruling created the fishery - a new PU fishery. So let me repeat: "The PU fishery of today was never a subsistence fishery"...different area, different gear, different users, different regulations, different management, different impact, different allocation/harvest, etc. etc.

        As a side note, I might also remind you that unlike the subsistence fishery, the new PU fishery exterminated the rod and reel fishery that used to take place on the north and south beaches. Gone.

        As for what you think you "deserve"...if you've lived up here 35 years, then you know this PU fishery was never part of your Alaskan life to begin with. Perhaps you should remind yourself how you managed without it. It is a shame that, as President of the Dipnetter's Association, you view the fishery merely as an easier and quicker way to get "30 lousy fish", since you don't have time.

        Your comment about "commercial whiners" is also disappointing, and it shows complete ignorance with commercial fishing. It also exposes yet another wedge that leaders of user groups like yourself insist on driving against the commercial fishery. Not what anyone needs.

        Whop, the commercial guys lost allocation to the PU fishery, plain and simple. To expect them not to complain, or not to fight to keep what they already had, is ridiculous - especially if you put yourself in their shoes and imagine how you would "whine" if your PU fishery had to surrender allocation to a new fishery. I agree the commercial guys were never guaranteed an allocation. However, the viability of their fishery, their capital investments, and their way of life, etc. all depend on keeping their allocation. That is exactly why very few newcomers enter into this commercial fishery, and most are long-time family operations. Also remember that the commercial guys don't easily forget being shut down as thousands of sockeye swim past their site, all while dipnetters were scooping them up. Or being shut down in the name of an over-exploited in-River King fishery gone wild. Or seeing years and years of sockeye escapements over the upper goal - lost yield. So I think it would be ignorant not to understand their "whining."

        Nope, you don't have to buy your fish through a fish broker...anymore than you need to dipnet them from the Kenai River.


        We can rehash the history of the ordeal, but the real problem was implementing a new fishery with shortsightedness. Neither the commercial guys, subsistence users, sporties, or even Bob Penney imagined the magnitude of impacts the new fishery would impose - giving virtually 750,000 Alaskan residents a green light to fish one run, in one river, in one small area, for one short time, all amongst a complex mixed stock mixed user fishery. A perfect example of creating a new fishery and then throwing it in everyone's lap without evaluating the impacts. Now in the aftermath, we continue to be in a state of reactionary measures, which includes suffering.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
          I have lived up here for 35 years and deserve a lousy 30 fish that I can dipnet, each year if they are available. due to over escapement.
          As a long time Cook Inlet drifter myself ..... I certainly don't look down on you or other Alaskan's that want to catch their own fish. Most people around the world will never have this opportunity ..... and must buy fish. As Nerka said ..... the PU/dip-net fishery that we now have ... has created as many problems as it was trying to solve. Still ..... this fishery isn't going away. It was actually pretty fun in the early days and I sure didn't mind seeing families getting their fish, while I was returning to the river at the end of fish periods.

          There were fellow drifters that would not power down their boats coming back into the river ...... so as to intentionally wake people already up to their chest while dip-netting. Too bad, there are jerks among all of our groups. Truth is, commercial fishermen of all types should have been more accommodating to personal use fisheries ..... after all, we share a common fundamental principle ...... that fish are food more than toys.

          The lack of a way to control the growth of the PU fishery has rendered it ....... not as friendly as it used to be. It continues to grow from one year to the next and attempts to manage this fishery ..... are not really working very well.

          Comment


          • #20
            Thanks for the history Nerka. It helps put things in perspective, but in no way justifies the sense of unconditional entitlement present in both the whop's post and his fishery that I loathe. If I represented the bad apples in my bunch I would expect you or him to call me on it, but I've never said you or he should not have an opportunity to get what fish you need through a variety of methods.


            Seriously - he calls me a commie...

            Comment


            • #21
              I am a Cook Inlet drifter too, and I love to see people catching their fish when I am coming back in the river. It is great to see families working together to catch fish for them to use. I have had many people stay at my fish camp and go dip netting when I am commercial fishing. I never wake dippers, but I do come close to them to push fish over to them if i know them. It works great you can push lots of fish over into the dip nets, just like running our drift nets to push fish into them. Just so everyone knows the fish pick when, and where they run. I am not sure that they know what day of the week it is when they charge the river in mass numbers. So when they hit the river on a weekday it is not my fault!

              Comment


              • #22
                Can't fault a guy for dreaming. If historically their was an army of dipnetters that sold fish, then you'd have a case. But, I've never heard of it. Once things went limited entry for fisheries, it's been fairly locked up. You were born 50 years too late.

                SE AK has a "Hand Troll" permit, which basically gave permits to guys who used sport gear to harvest salmon for sale. They are going for about 12k now, and you can use rod/reel in the saltwater to harvest as many as you can, when the season is open. An individual fisherman can use up to 4 rods, but no downrigger. You can sell the fish, or keep them for yourself after you offload. Might be what the OP is looking for, if he dreams of being a commercial fisherman.
                Alaska Wide Open Charters
                www.alaskawideopen.com
                907-965-0130

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by smithtb View Post
                  Thanks for the history Nerka. It helps put things in perspective, but in no way justifies the sense of unconditional entitlement present in both the whop's post and his fishery that I loathe. If I represented the bad apples in my bunch I would expect you or him to call me on it, but I've never said you or he should not have an opportunity to get what fish you need through a variety of methods.


                  Seriously - he calls me a commie...
                  I hate the word commie and it is insulting and not needed in a rationale discussion. Those who use that term lower themselves not you.

                  I agree no one is entitled to anything when it comes to fish. I just think there is a balance to reach if we reject the Penney's of this world. For example, on large Kenai and Kasilof returns there is no reason to have a full out dip net fishery (habitat friendly only). In contrast, in very low sockeye returns the commercial fishery needs fish to survive. Why the BOF cannot be adults on this issue and habitat issues is a symptom of Alaska's individualism rather than a community perspective and Penney's win/lose approach to life.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I use the word "commie" not as an insult but as a position. Smith, you are wayyyyy off base. I am not entitled to any fish but if there is an excese, I think any Alaskan in entitled to maybe go down and try to snag a few' I have many friends that commercial fish out of Cordova and we still have a great friendship 20 years in the making. That said, I am not entitled to some fish but neither are you, u just bought access, nothing more.. Stop whining, I'm not entitled but neither are you. Thank you again Nerka. I'm not against commercial fishing, just think that the average Alaskan wants some fish and should be entitled to some anyway
                    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip? ALASKADIPNETTING.NET

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      If you have your feelings hurt, I will be the first one to by you a beer, TB, Just calling it like I see it. Will be down next month to kill some time. PM me with a cell number. thewhop2000
                      If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip? ALASKADIPNETTING.NET

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Sticks and stones.... get a grip dude. Commie is a position, not a yard job. I'm a dipper, you don't see me whining cause I am one?
                        If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip? ALASKADIPNETTING.NET

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by thewhop2000
                          I am not entitled to any fish...I am not entitled to some fish...I'm not entitled...
                          Originally posted by thewhop2000
                          PU users deserve some of the escapement...I have lived up here for 35 years and deserve a lousy 30 fish that I can dipnet...average Alaskans should be entitled to some anyway...any Alaskan is entitled...

                          Is that a cake-and-eat-it-too scenario, doublespeak, or are you just confused?

                          It is a sad day when the President of our Dipnet Association proudly takes the position that commercial fishermen are "commies", 30 sockeye are "lousy", and most arrogantly of all - he deserves them. No thank you...I'll be yanking my membership and support, Ken.


                          Oh, yeah...please stop whining about commercial fishermen. If you knew anything about them you would know they bought much more than just access.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            If you two were my kids I would duct tape you to each other. You can act like this on Facebook!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
                              I use the word "commie" not as an insult but as a position. Smith, you are wayyyyy off base. I am not entitled to any fish but if there is an excese, I think any Alaskan in entitled to maybe go down and try to snag a few' I have many friends that commercial fish out of Cordova and we still have a great friendship 20 years in the making. That said, I am not entitled to some fish but neither are you, u just bought access, nothing more.. Stop whining, I'm not entitled but neither are you. Thank you again Nerka. I'm not against commercial fishing, just think that the average Alaskan wants some fish and should be entitled to some anyway
                              Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
                              If you have your feelings hurt, I will be the first one to by you a beer, TB, Just calling it like I see it. Will be down next month to kill some time. PM me with a cell number. thewhop2000
                              Originally posted by thewhop2000 View Post
                              Sticks and stones.... get a grip dude. Commie is a position, not a yard job. I'm a dipper, you don't see me whining cause I am one?

                              Right. Ok. So me being a commie is my position, not my occupation. That's much better. So it's not that I commercial fish, it's the position I take that makes me a "commie".

                              I HAVE NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT BEING A COMMERCIAL FISHERMEN, AND MY FEELINGS AREN'T HURT. I would love for you to tell me where I'm off base.

                              What's with the labels, anyway? Like I don't value or never choose to sport or PU fish? What the heck do you think I do the 46 weekends a year that I don't "commie" fish? How the heck do you think I got my "lousy 30 fish" in 2012? I sent my wife over the bluff with chest waders and a dipnet. She had a blast, and didn't blame someone else when she stood there for 4 hours and only got 4 fish. She thought it was awesome, despite the fact that she got a little muddy and wet...

                              Whop, my position is not one of a "commie". It is one of a life-long KP resident who has grown up fishing. Commercial, sport, PU. Like a TON of people who live here, I've done a little of everything. Should you choose to label me, like your friends at KRSA do every time I publically comment on something, that's your choice. Obviously you all feel that labeling someone as a "Setnetter" or a "Commie" discredits them somehow. Maybe you could give us all big red "C's" to sew on our coats?

                              Yeah Nerka, I remember the subsistence beach net fishery because I participated in that fishery with my family for years, like many other locals. I rather liked that fishery - I've always felt like the investment required (time, gear, and know-how) was a good thing. It helped curb the very attitude that TheWhop represents. It required that people prepare and learn a little bit about how to set a net, how to safely fish the net, how to pound a stake, how to use a block, HOW TO READ A FREAKING TIDE BOOK, etc. One's success depended on it.

                              TheWhop - I think we should manage our rivers to the escapement levels predicted to provide the largest sustained yield. Within that management I feel that there should be reasonable opportunity and limits for the sport, commercial, and PU fishery combined. Reasonable limits means that no, the entire state should not be able to harvest PU fish from one or two rivers. With reasonable, healthy limits on our fisheries, and with an understanding that we cannot allow unlimited access to a limited resource, and that our escapement goals have two sides to them, there is a way to manage our fisheries to give everyone reasonable opportunity.

                              However if you continue to endorse those seeking to eliminate commercial fishing altogether by supporting their lies, untruths, and false labels and regurgitating them to your membership, that will never happen. Calling them like you see them... You can do better than that!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                tbsmith - I know you wife and I bet you have never sent her anywhere - she may have sent you somewhere at times.

                                Sometimes things just get lost in the moment. The word commie was used by some at first in a very insulting way. The reference to communism is not lost on most. However, over time people started to refer or use it in a different sense. I do not think those who called people dippers had a lot of love in their hearts when it was first used. Somehow set netter or drifter is fine. I just think typing out commercial or dip net fishery is not that hard and if a word hurts someone it should be dropped.

                                But back to fishery management. Funstastic did not suggest a weir and I think he knows the problems with it. A weir is very costly -3.5 million to install in 1983 dollars. Annual operating costs are significant. Fish quality is poor, it is a social program if money is distributed without any work by commercial permit holders, and it probably would not work given that 1 million fish could hit the weir on a couple of tides if there was no set net fishery. In summary, the set net fishery has evolved because it works well for commercial fishing and taking only 10-15 % of the chinook return it is very clean.

                                So I find the whole discussion to be somewhat silly from a management viewpoint. I would submit that an independent group looking at UCI allocation battles would be shocked at the way it has devolved to the point of being ugly and not oriented to good scientific management of the resources.

                                Comment

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