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Emergency high angle rescue kit.

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  • #16
    Wow, and I mean WOW!
    A guy asks a question regarding self-rescue, and people suggest he should leave his "heavy" gear at home and rely on SPOT and Sat phone for an outside rescue instead?!
    What ever happened to the self sufficient mentality of most (?) Alaskans?

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    • #17
      What would you consider as sufficient gear for a high angle rescue on a sheep hunt? and then factor that against how it would affect his likely success on said hunt.

      At a minimum a climbing rope is 10#'s and a harness, small selection of anchors, runners and biners is an additional 10#'s. Given that most mountains that people are sheep hunting on are a combination of crumbling fractured rock, that minimal selection of anchors would be marginal at best for rappeling and completely inadequate for enacting a rescue. So he has an inadequate amount of gear that puts his own life in peril and then a SAR team is called in to rescue or retrieve two people. Or he bumps up his rescue gear to 40-50#'s. He could have that extra pack in camp, where it will likely do him no good, or he could pack it with him, in which case he is slowed down. The majority of accidents are due to making poor choices, and I'd wager a bet the majority of stupid moves in the mountains are born out of fatique. Packing that extra 40-50# will lead to fatigue and in hence will make him more likelyh to make a bad decision and get in trouble.

      #1 rule for rescuers is don't put your own life in peril.

      One of the things I've learned in 25+ years of climbing is that the guys that know what they are doing and move light and fast are less likely to get in trouble in the mountains. Those geared up for every eventuality either never get off the ground, or take too long on route and the best they can hope for is an unplanned bivouac.
      Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

      If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

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      • #18
        "What would you consider as sufficient gear for a high angle rescue on a sheep hunt?"
        Well, I guess you'll have to answer the question in my 2nd post, as that would dictate the gear or lack thereof.

        "Packing that extra 40-50# ..."
        Dude, you got to be kidding me - that's the weight of a pack for multi-day technical climb (including everything!), not a casual rescue kit!
        The gear has really gotten much lighter in the last 25+ years...

        "Those geared up for every eventuality either never get off the ground..."
        Well, we do agree here!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by AKClimber View Post
          Wow, and I mean WOW!
          A guy asks a question regarding self-rescue, and people suggest he should leave his "heavy" gear at home and rely on SPOT and Sat phone for an outside rescue instead?!
          What ever happened to the self sufficient mentality of most (?) Alaskans?
          +1. Obviously it's an interesting question, but so far it hasn't been answered.

          -Mike
          Michael Strahan
          Site Owner
          Alaska Hunt Consultant
          1 (907) 229-4501

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by AKClimber View Post
            Wow, and I mean WOW!
            A guy asks a question regarding self-rescue, and people suggest he should leave his "heavy" gear at home and rely on SPOT and Sat phone for an outside rescue instead?!
            What ever happened to the self sufficient mentality of most (?) Alaskans?

            Hmmm what a constructive post to help the original poster. So let see the OP's original question was "Looking for suggestions for an emergency high angle rescue kit for mtn goat and sheep hunting here in Ak" So as a sheep hunting guide,goat hunter, and participating member of the Alaska hunting forum where a question was asked I offered my suggestion based on many years of sheep and goat hunting and the experience of multible hunting guides.I stated that based on said experience of myself and other professionals I do not see the need to carry this type of emergency gear on a typical sheep or goat hunt on top of a pack full of sleeping gear cloths tent food cooking gear water misc gear and if successful 100 plus pounds of meat,capes horns ect... So please tell me where my suggestion was wrong. The OP has the right to disagree with or dismiss my suggestion and I have no problem with that as we all have the right to make our own deciscions based on experience.I have never seen a need to carry this extra equipment since most bad situations can be avoided with a little common sense.Accidents do happen and people even get struck by lightning so does that mean I should carry a ground rod around.... In post number 2 you asked what accident to anticipate...any one of the four things you mentioned are possible so should he carry gear for all four...

            I am all for being self sufficent but also for being practical...

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            • #21
              Generally technical climbing gear hasn't changed much in 25 years nor, asside from wire gate biners, it hasn't gotten signifigantly lighter. Then factor in 60m ropes vs. 50's and the leader ends up carrying a few more pieces, so weight really isn't that much different.

              I don't see a rescue as ever being a casual affair, and there is a world of difference between an alpine climber having a couple of pulleys and prusiks added to his rack, than gear that is sufficient to rescue someone injured on the side of a cliff.

              I guess the long and the short of it is, as I see it, anyone experienced enough to be performing a rescue isn't going to be asking the gear questions, and anyone asking the gear questions 99 times out of 100 has no business setting up a rescue.
              Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

              If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Michael Strahan View Post
                +1. Obviously it's an interesting question, but so far it hasn't been answered.

                -Mike
                OK Mike as a guide how much additional weight do you suggest a hunter add to an already at times unbearable load that is required for a successful sheep or goat hunt....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Safety and time consideration

                  Ok lets visit this from another standpoint. Time. I propose that you can save time by using a lightweight "rescue kit". If a hunter/climber has a harness, ATC device and webbing he can rig up a decending route that would save time. Time might be saved while traversing mountainous terrain durring a stalk.

                  Of course you would be leaving your anchor behind in many instanaces. Thats another issue all together. Another factor I struggle with is the length of line. A 60m rope, even in light configuration is too heavy for alpine hunting work. I've considered cutting a 60 in half and limiting my rope work to 30. That would leave my vertical repels limited to 15m. That seems to be what "cliffs me out" of some locations. I'm trying to use smart movements but find small obstructive rock elements (waterfall chutes with unseen drops, ridgelines with "teeth", side hilling with chutes) There seems to be a suprise around every bend. We all know the circumnavigating some stuff can take huge amounts of time. With a sound approach, gear, and knowlege,I propose time and energy be saved with "gear". I know it's hypothetical and there is always a way around obsticals. What if a hunter/climber wants to engage in that element? Afterall some people enjoy climbing in the rocks.

                  Another thing I've seen is the recovery isn't always as predicatable as desired. Animals fall in bad spots. Why not be prepared for that?

                  Just saying.....Of course I have yet to haul gear up the mountain for goats or sheep. I've seriously considered and have it purchased and at the ready in my garage. I've got some sport climbing experience on vertical rock and climbing gym time.

                  Good points Paul! Rescue kits would be way more complicated that what I'm discussing. WAY MORE! I'm talking about a minimalist protection kit just to be clear here. Your gonna want a multiple man ground crew, unkown quantities of rope and "gear" and a 100 million dollar Jayhawk at the ready in a real resuce situation.

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                  • #24
                    What we have here is a difference in perception.
                    To Paul H, the word rescue conjures images of 11mm static line, brake bars, load releasing hitches, big steel biners, pulleys, etc. etc. And heís right, that kind of a rescue gear is impractical if you want to do anything except rescue.
                    To me, I have images of countless scenarios, each requiring a different set of tools in onesí quiver.
                    Now, ďBearĒ poster is a cautionary type who would not venture in terrain that is above his comfort zone, and therefore will not have a need for any technical rescue gear. And heíll be least likely to need a rescue, so maybe a sat phone is most useful in his situation because the most likely rescue scenario would involve a life threatening event, maybe a health issue, a bad fall, or some other scenario where self-rescue might not even be possible.

                    So back to my question in the 2nd post. What do you anticipate as the most likely rescue situation and by rescue I donít necessarily mean an immediate threat to life, but more ability to return to camp before dark, or getting off the mountain before dark, or safely getting off the mountain in a snow storm when in steep terrain, or getting cliffed out, etc., etc... Just search the archives (ADN, etc.) - these situations often resulted in a full blown rescue that was summoned by the sat phone/spot toting hunter/hiker/climber who was perfectly fine otherwise.

                    So first of all the self rescue gear depends on the terrain youíll be in - will you be crossing neve covered glacier, how about glacial rivers, steep scree or solid rock, lots of benches and ledges on the mountain face? Will you be alone?

                    Then letís look at the most likely self-rescue scenario in the terrain youíll be in. Remember, this is about just getting back to camp, or off the mountain without putting yourself in greater danger. Or how about lowering that sheep, or your pack down a steep section so you can down climb safely without that weight pulling you off.
                    By answering these questions, youíll know what youíll need.

                    But remember, without experience, itís just weight, that might get you in more trouble than not having it.

                    So what rescue gear do I carry when by myself? Well, none, unless Iím climbing of course. But when with someone who is not very experienced, I might grab a short 8mm rope (10-20m in length Ė static is fine, heck I wonít be leading!) and a couple of slings or cord. To rappel, you use the time honored dulfersitz (a bit painful with 8mm), to set up anchors, you sling horns (rock, not sheep) and use rocks as chocks in cracks. With this added weight of a pound or two, you can set up a fixed line (hand rail) for the other guy to get across an especially exposed section, you can lower a pack, you can rappel down a short cliff, you can use it to sling packs across a raging glacial river, etc.

                    I do agree, however, that if one has to ask what rescue gear one needs, they should take ďBearísĒ approach and stay well within ones comfort zone.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by AKClimber View Post
                      Wow, and I mean WOW!
                      A guy asks a question regarding self-rescue, and people suggest he should leave his "heavy" gear at home and rely on SPOT and Sat phone for an outside rescue instead?!
                      What ever happened to the self sufficient mentality of most (?) Alaskans?
                      I have to agree with this. One drawback of SPOT, SAT Phones and PLB's is that there is an assumption first that someone will get the call (doesn't always happen) and second that they will respond in a timely fashion, or at all. Inclement weather, availability of rescue personnel, prior rescue call-outs, distance from rescue center, nearest parking/LZ etc. can all affect whether a rescue team can show up quickly or at all. Everyone should have the gear necessary to self-rescue and everyone should practice the skills necessary to not get into a self-rescue scenario in the first place. Calling for help should be the last resort, not the first. I am surprised to see people essentially saying "leave the gear, take a phone" instead of recommending safe procedures and even places where one can get technical training.
                      "If snowmachiners would adopt the habits of riding one at a time and not parking at the base of avalanche prone slopes, the number of fatalities would likely be whittled by at least a third, if not by half." ~ Jill Fredston, in the book Snowstruck, In The Grip Of Avalanches.

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