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  • #31
    here's an offer

    the next time somebody uses the lame argument that " you anchorage people can buy beef at fred meyers".....offer to trade them a side of beef for a side of moose. maybe then they might finally get the point. I DON'T LIKE BEEF. as long as the AK constitution applies, i have just as much right to hunt anywhere in the state (public state lands), as anybody else. does'nt matter who was " here first" or "i've lived here 200 years"...don't care, does'nt matter. the only answer to the screwed up tier 2 baloney is a drawing permit.someday we'll have somebody sue the state and straighten this mess out.

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    • #32
      Hmmmm - Not Sure Where to Start

      Originally posted by FBKShunter
      Many small towns all over the nation are disappearing. Just look at south and north dakota. Guess what happened to the people that lived there. They moved to areas of the country where they can make a living, and their former towns are ghost towns. My point you ask?

      Why should the rest of alaska subsidize small villages. If you can't afford to live there move. If a village is no longer economically viable maybe it's for a reason. Time to move on and go to the places where you can make a living and support your family instead of asking for special privledges.

      Subsistence has no place in modern society. What happens when there are more subsistence hunters than available game? With population growth it will eventually happen, probably sooner than later.
      FBKS,

      This is such a broad statement, it's kinda hard to respond....but, I'll give it a go.

      Sounds like you're not supportive of "special privileges" - can you tell me what you do to earn the Permanent Fund Dividend you get every October?

      "Subsistence had no place in modern society" - who said modern society is a goal for every town, village, and remote location in the country? In some cases, remote towns and villages across the country were better off before they were touched by "modern society" - in many cases the "modern comforts" do more to harm the lifestyle in remote places, than they help.

      Several of the posters on this forum live out in the wild, in what could be termed at least a partial subsistence lifestyle - are you telling them all to quit what they're doing, and move to Fairbanks?

      That's the best I can do, given the broad nature of your statement. Happy hunting,

      Michael

      Comment


      • #33
        Subsistance arguments

        First let me say one thing. Arguing on the Internet and trying to win is like winning a Gold medal in the Special Olympics.
        You may have won, but your still retarded.

        This argument is an old one,it will go on long after we all pass on at the rate the legislature is going.
        No matter what your position is on it, whether you feel the rest of the state is subsidizing villages or you feel that every resident has a right to subsist as they see fit, it is not going to be settled. The government we elect has refused to make any meaningful progress at solving the issue.
        I honestly don't think it is a issue that has an answer, at least one that all can live with.
        I live in Nome. Let me tell you that the cost of living continues to climb nearly daily.
        I don't have any intention of leaving, it is what it is.

        Lets talk about bear hunting. Something we have control over. Sort of.

        Comment


        • #34
          true subsistance....

          exits only in rare situations any more in Alaska. I do not consider emptying an SKS into a herd of 'bou from a four wheeler and taking the back straps home only from those are left on the ground after the rest of the herd runs or stumbles off, substance hunting. No, not everyone does that but those that do (that I have personally witnessed) just laughed as I looked on in disbelief, and said, "I'm N......, whose going to do anything about it?" Doesn't happen...get your head out of the sand! Just happened recently with muskox, with interior griz, with sheep on the slope....and those are just the instances that made it to the public eye. Nope, TRUE SUBSISTANCE hunting is a rare thing currently (maybe Heimo Korth would be an appropriate example of what I envision when I think of subsistance hunting). As I see it most subsistance done today in Alaska is a sham...call it what you will (native preference?) but don't call it subsistance hunting.....because it ain't.
          "Actions speak louder than words - 'nough said"

          Comment


          • #35
            Hey Allen, its been about 8 years ago since I was in chevak.

            Comment


            • #36
              oh well

              [QUOTE=shphtr]...Just happened recently with muskox, with interior griz, with sheep on the slope....

              maybe it is comparing apples and oranges, but is it any less heinous as the two sheep off the seward hwy, the recent articles about adn article about busting another guide after 7 years, etc.

              bottom line I agree with Grizzlykiller's post above

              Comment


              • #37
                oh well

                yup, apples to oranges
                "Actions speak louder than words - 'nough said"

                Comment


                • #38
                  round and round

                  Grizzlykiller is right; this won't be decided for a while.

                  It's hard to even tell what some of you are arguing about. I think most are arguing about "rural preference" to fish and game.

                  But then it gets personal, how much John Doe makes compared to Joe Blow, whether or not Joe Blow gets Native health insurance, whether John Doe gets a pfd. None of that matters.

                  How do you guys feel about a treaty signed by our governnment with the Native Alaskans? Should we break it like we broke all the others? Just because many now say "I didn't sign that treaty! I didn't want ANCSA and ANILCA!"

                  ANCSA (the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act) paved the way (literally) for the oil pipeline. Without that "treaty," there would be no pipeline. Without that treaty, Alaska wouldn't be swimming in cash right now, and the oil companies wouldn't be showing record profits in Alaska.

                  Since "native preference" wasn't gonna fly, it was changed it to "rural preference." And now...the best compromise (and I'm on board with it) is local preference to fish and game in times of shortages. This discriminates against all Alaskan's equally. If there is a shortage near Anchorage, then Anchorites get preference. If there's a shortage around a village, then the villagers get preference. That's all we can do, cuz no governor and attorney general has had the will to take this to the supreme court. And it's a no-win situation for the legislators. And even if the state did get it to the supreme court, the justices could still decide the fed law (treaty) supercedes state law. Meaning: until we change the state constitution by amendment, or until the state wins in court, we're gonna have dual management of fish and game.

                  Say that's a given---dual management until we die. How to make the best of it? The "local preference in times of shortage" seems to be the only compromise. Yes there will be abuses...what's new? Name one type of user that does something bad, and there is another type of user doing the same.

                  Subsistence is still happening. It's just changed with the times. Did any of you shoot a moose last year, butcher it, bring all the meat back and feed yourself and your family with this gift? If so, you're a subsistence hunter. As such, you should respect other subsistence hunters.

                  Subsistence: it's about what's for dinner every night. Or what's not for dinner. It isn't about whether you make ten grand or 120grand a year. It isn't about whether you are on welfare or receiving pfds or hidden subsidies. It's hunting and gathering and canning and smoking and freezing and roasting and bbq-ing and boiling and frying. It's about food. It's about a gift...the gift of plant and animal. And what you do with that gift. Whether you respect it or not.

                  It's about knowing what a Swainson's Thrush in the willows sounds like, when the ravens are ready to have their chicks, how to avoid overflow, how to make a pair of snowshoes, how to set a trap for marten or wolf, how to make a birch basket, how to butcher a 1500lb bull moose and bring the entire thing home, guts, blood and all, how to fillet a salmon, how to smoke and can same....

                  Subsistence is about a lot of things. Mostly these discussions about it remind me of "nature" writers from the states trying to write about Alaska. They do an okay job but really don't have a clue as to the reality of it. They mistake a spruce for a pine. Until you've lived subsistence, you don't know what it is. So it's easy to say what it isn't. It's real easy to say "there is no such thing." Maybe so, depending on how you define it.

                  Best to all,
                  Mark






                  Mark Richards
                  www.residenthuntersofalaska.org

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by FBKShunter
                    Many small towns all over the nation are disappearing. Just look at south and north dakota. Guess what happened to the people that lived there. They moved to areas of the country where they can make a living, and their former towns are ghost towns. My point you ask?

                    Why should the rest of alaska subsidize small villages. If you can't afford to live there move. If a village is no longer economically viable maybe it's for a reason. Time to move on and go to the places where you can make a living and support your family instead of asking for special privledges.

                    Subsistence has no place in modern society. What happens when there are more subsistence hunters than available game? With population growth it will eventually happen, probably sooner than later.
                    While there are probably not many that truely have a susistance lifestyle there are many that rely on game to suppliment their food sources. I know that I live off of whitetail or moose (when I am lucky enough to get one). It helps greatly with the grocery bills.
                    The statement above, to me, is an attack on rural communities. Last time I looked there were homeless shelters, food kitchens, welfare recipients and heating assistence given to people living in the (so called) big cities. You know the ones you were refering to that people should move to for jobs. Maybe cleaning up your own back yard should be a good place to start before attack a struggling communities and their subsistence lifestyles.
                    If you take the woods out of the woodsman you have nothing left but a man in the woods.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Maineguide
                      While there are probably not many that truely have a susistance lifestyle there are many that rely on game to suppliment their food sources. I know that I live off of whitetail or moose (when I am lucky enough to get one). It helps greatly with the grocery bills.
                      The statement above, to me, is an attack on rural communities. Last time I looked there were homeless shelters, food kitchens, welfare recipients and heating assistence given to people living in the (so called) big cities. You know the ones you were refering to that people should move to for jobs. Maybe cleaning up your own back yard should be a good place to start before attack a struggling communities and their subsistence lifestyles.
                      Maine,

                      I was from a small town. But guess what when times got tough I got up and moved. I know hard working families who can barely afford food here in the city. Why don't they have the right to go shoot a subsistence moose? They need it more than a guy in the bush who has a supercub and makes 100,000.
                      I'm not saying rural residents shouldn't supplement their food bills with game meat. But they should hunt, trap, fish the same seasons and the rest of the residents of the state. They should be more successful just by having the local knowledge of the area. Also rural residents should also be just as responsible for violating game laws and sport hunters. But it seems troopers are unwilling to even touch most cases. This is apparently changing though as we have seen a few cases prosecuted lately.
                      And if theres a family out there truly living the subsistence lifestyle. You know, heating your cabin with wood, using a dog team for transportation, and your only income is trapping more power to you. And if this family exists I don't think they would have to ask, nor would they ask anyones permission to subsist. But I do know one thing, they wouldn't on the internet complaining about the price of food and gas!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        BUSHRAT AKA Mark

                        Wow!
                        You are so far off base and removed from reality, that I hardly know where to start addressing your statements.
                        Drawing permits indicate a definate shortage of game. Has the BOG implemented tier 2 permits for Unit 14? NO
                        Your twisted perceptions simply don't fly.
                        That is why it is labeled RURAL PREFERENCE. PERIOD...... What part of that is so hard to accept. Face it hunters in metro areas will NEVER have preference. It is truly a racial issue, but none of the liberal will admit it publicly.
                        FOR THE RECORD:
                        $ have nothing to do with it
                        gimme's have nothing to do with it
                        freebies have nothing to do with it
                        It is the age old story-line of the liberals. If you have something, then you should be willing to "distribute it to the less fortunate" Never mind that those same individuals contribute absolutely nothing to society.
                        Liberals have always placed individuals within social classes (read the history books)
                        Hey all you would be (if only you could) hunters living in the metro areas, HOW DO YOU LIKE BEING LABELED "A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN"?
                        I am not among the city dwellers, but I personally feel the present system is harmful the HUNTING. The anti's have used this opportunity to drive deep wedges among the hunting community. Plays right into their game plan. Eliminate hunting when and where the opportunity exists. Hunters are asleep at the helm on this one. Future generations of hunters will suffer greatly as a result of this "INSANITY". WE NEED A HERO to overcome this travesty of public trust.
                        "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
                        ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Hey AKres

                          AKres,

                          I don't know about you, or others, but if I run across someone less fortunate than myself, and I can help them, I do. I don't think this is a "liberal" or "conservative" thing---it's just a part of being human. On another forum there was a guy asking for moose meat because he was sick and could only eat game meat, didn't have any moose. And many offered to help, to provide some meat. I'd venture to say that those that did were not "liberals." I'd follow that up by saying that just because this man was less fortunate than themselves, they didn't view him as someone who contributes absolutely nothing to society.

                          This issue has nothing to do with anti-hunters. Anti-hunters make up a very small part of our U.S. population. This issue is not about the bad "liberals" either. Our government signed a contract with the Alaska Native peoples. Whether you, or I, disagree with that contract is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is a binding contract, signed in good faith. And that it has repercussions for many Alaskans. And that it will likely be in place until you and I die. We can either try to come to some compromise, or not, within the framework of the law. The best compromise to date is "local preference in times of shortage."

                          That was the gist of my point. I wish you all the best,
                          Mark




                          Mark Richards
                          www.residenthuntersofalaska.org

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Good topic for a thread - it obviously has generated interest and touched a nerve. I'd just like to remind you guys that civility and respect are two of the hallmarks of the forums here. While worth discussing, this thread has moved in the direction of name-calling and frustration on a few occasions. Let's keep it within the ideals of civil discourse while we discuss this important issue, fellas. Thanks!

                            -Brian

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Anilca

                              Originally posted by bushrat
                              AKres,


                              This issue has nothing to do with anti-hunters. Anti-hunters make up a very small part of our U.S. population. This issue is not about the bad "liberals" either. Our government signed a contract with the Alaska Native peoples. Whether you, or I, disagree with that contract is irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is a binding contract, signed in good faith. And that it has repercussions for many Alaskans. And that it will likely be in place until you and I die. We can either try to come to some compromise, or not, within the framework of the law. The best compromise to date is "local preference in times of shortage."

                              That was the gist of my point. I wish you all the best,
                              Mark




                              Bushrat,

                              Wasn't anilca suppose to create native corporations, and give them land so the natives of alaska could be self supporting. But even after anilca, most villages have few jobs, no property taxes, and the infrastructure is built by the state and federal goverment. This agreement should make the need for subsistence less, not more. If it hasn't, the agreement has been a failure right?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                No it was ANCSA

                                Originally posted by FBKShunter
                                Bushrat,

                                Wasn't anilca suppose to create native corporations, and give them land so the natives of alaska could be self supporting. But even after anilca, most villages have few jobs, no property taxes, and the infrastructure is built by the state and federal goverment. This agreement should make the need for subsistence less, not more. If it hasn't, the agreement has been a failure right?
                                ANILCA is the Alaska National Interest Land Conservation Act, which supposedly, "Locked up" land for federal use such as national parks & preserves...

                                Now, ANCSA is what you are referring too, Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, where 13 Native corporations were put in to effect shortly after oil was found in & around Barrow. & yes there are job's Look at COMINCO, & NOVA GOLD as some sources of jobs for the Native Shareholders, those are just a few of the examples, as I don't know about all of the other villages & Native corps.

                                Comment

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