Non-hunters in the field with you, but carrying a firearm for backup...

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  • #76
    Originally posted by stid2677 View Post
    If your intent is pure, and the guest is truly not hunting I would not worry about it.

    If you are trying to be shady and get over, then you deserve what you get.
    I'd agree with Steve.

    If your still concerned, have your friend pack a video camera and make him use it. He may as well be doing something productive. Then post it up here.

    Comment


    • #77
      Bottom line is... The "Non-Hunting" cousin/friend scenario has been abused to death in AK! Literally!

      Comment


      • #78
        There is no law that says you need to have a drivers license, Unless of course you are driving a car. ( that is a privelige and not a right)
        There is no law that says you have to have a drivers license to purchase a hunting or fishing license,
        You are Protected by federal laws on that one..but they do put a space in the license for that number to be placed.
        My grandmother never drove a car and never had a drivers license ,, EVER,, and no matter what.... she did not need one as the Federal laws protected her from having to get any form of ID .
        Federal laws protect each of us from the state. If a LEO asks for your drivers license when you are not driving a vehicle you do not have to produce it. He should have respect for the fact that we live with that freedom.
        If you are asked to produce a ID or Drivers license in the field, when you decline the officer should have respect for your right to not have to produce any such document. And UNDERSTAND That without any thought otherwise... Its your right,, the very rights he vowed to uphold when he became an officer.
        Again He should not have prejudice against you if you do not want to produce for him a license or a Identification card.
        A hunting license is a privelige so you need one of those if you are in the act of hunting or have harvested an animal. But You do not need to produce any other document as to who you are.
        I have folks that come to my place to purchase fishing licenses and when they see that space for them to put the drivers license number down, they usually do it very willingly and without any thought.
        If they forgot their drivers license and say.... left it in the car, the rush out to get it,, no questions ask...
        This perplexes me personally as I know that We as citizens do not have to produce any ID. Please folks, do not forget you have rights and that our LEO's should have respect for those rights.
        Seems we just accept what ever is asked of us sometimes without thinking it all thru.
        Just be honest when talking to a officer, but know that you have rights and do not let anyone disrespect your rights... When that happens, If a LEO tries to force you or pressure you they are in the wrong... Yes, They have no right to suspect you of any wrong due,,,, because you do not give them a Drivers license. Each Officer ,, again swore to uphold the laws, and the law says you do not have to have a drivers license to be a citizen of this country, and even if you have a drivers license or ID card, you are not required to produce it ...
        nothing wrong with not saying anything.
        That is your right and should be respected..
        My wifes nephew is an attorney and he gives out cards to anyone he comes in contact with , the cards have his name and phone number and these words.
        MY RIGHTS CARD
        I am giving you this card because I do not wish
        to speak to you or have any further contact with
        you. I choose to exercise my right to remain
        silent and to refuse to answer your questions.
        If you arrest me, I will continue to exercise my
        right to remain silent and to refuse to answer
        your questions. I want to speak with a lawyer
        before answering your questions.
        Last edited by Alaskacanoe; 03-18-2011, 01:34.
        When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

        Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Alaskacanoe View Post
          There is no law that says you need to have a drivers license, Unless of course you are driving a car. ( that is a privelige and not a right)
          There is no law that says you have to have a drivers license to purchase a hunting or fishing license,
          You are Protected by federal laws on that one..but they do put a space in the license for that number to be placed.
          My grandmother never drove a car and never had a drivers license ,, EVER,, and no matter what.... she did not need one as the Federal laws protected her from having to get any form of ID .
          Federal laws protect each of us from the state. If a LEO asks for your drivers license when you are not driving a vehicle you do not have to produce it. He should have respect for the fact that we live with that freedom.
          If you are asked to produce a ID or Drivers license in the field, when you decline the officer should have respect for your right to not have to produce any such document. And UNDERSTAND That without any thought otherwise... Its your right,, the very rights he vowed to uphold when he became an officer.
          Again He should not have prejudice against you if you do not want to produce for him a license or a Identification card.
          A hunting license is a privelige so you need one of those if you are in the act of hunting or have harvested an animal. But You do not need to produce any other document as to who you are.
          I have folks that come to my place to purchase fishing licenses and when they see that space for them to put the drivers license number down, they usually do it very willingly and without any thought.
          If they forgot their drivers license and say.... left it in the car, the rush out to get it,, no questions ask...
          This perplexes me personally as I know that We as citizens do not have to produce any ID. Please folks, do not forget you have rights and that our LEO's should have respect for those rights.
          Seems we just accept what ever is asked of us sometimes without thinking it all thru.
          Just be honest when talking to a officer, but know that you have rights and do not let anyone disrespect your rights... When that happens, If a LEO tries to force you or pressure you they are in the wrong... Yes, They have no right to suspect you of any wrong due,,,, because you do not give them a Drivers license. Each Officer ,, again swore to uphold the laws, and the law says you do not have to have a drivers license to be a citizen of this country, and even if you have a drivers license or ID card, you are not required to produce it ...
          nothing wrong with not saying anything.
          That is your right and should be respected..
          My wifes nephew is an attorney and he gives out cards to anyone he comes in contact with , the cards have his name and phone number and these words.
          MY RIGHTS CARD
          I am giving you this card because I do not wish
          to speak to you or have any further contact with
          you. I choose to exercise my right to remain
          silent and to refuse to answer your questions.
          If you arrest me, I will continue to exercise my
          right to remain silent and to refuse to answer
          your questions. I want to speak with a lawyer
          before answering your questions.
          Very well said.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by stid2677 View Post
            I will go ahead and say what has caused the Troopers to be suspect of people carrying guns in the woods. It is unfortunate but a fact that people have had friends come along and PARTY hunt, because they did not want to pay the non-resident license and tag fees. This was a common practice with Black Bear hunters in unit 6D when the limit was 3. Folks would let their non-res friends shoot a bear and they would tag it.

            I recently had my wife's cousin along with us during a hunt. I contacted the enforcement officer for the area and spoke with him to let him know that he would be with the wife and I as a non-hunter.

            If your intent is pure, and the guest is truly not hunting I would not worry about it.

            If you are trying to be shady and get over, then you deserve what you get.

            JMHO

            Steve
            This is the bottom line. For me and my crew the non-res hunters that don't have a tag do not carry around rifles. It is a ridiculous argument that they need to have rifles for bears, and I will not even go down the path of "back-up" shots. I personally believe that if you cannot take the animal yourself then don't take the shot. This is for another thread I know, but back-up shots are lazy and relied upon too much. So, I agree with Stid, if anyone is truly coming along for the experience and to be present with friends only, then they don't need a license.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by mmusashi2k View Post
              The way I see it is that it is clearly stated, AK is a right to carry state and as long as you have a right to possess you may do it anywhere that it is legal to do so. You may carry in your car, in the grocery store or any business where it is not cleary and conspicuously posted otherwise. You may carry while walking down the street or while in the woods weather on a solo hike or with a Girl Scout troop so I can't imagine why you shouldn't be able to carry a rifle while hiking with someone who is hunting. Bear protection or whatever, you don't need an excuse to have a rifle while in an area where it is legal.

              Now, if you were to start shooting at animals while you were hiking with a firearm, well that's another topic entirely. That's called hunting and you definitely need a licence to do so legally. I guess what I can't see is why anyone would want to be out there without a hunting licence as most animals taste good.
              What I see from your post is the you are making "shooting" = "hunting". I tend to think of those as different, albight no completely independant, activities. You can shoot without hunting (target shooting) and hunt without shooting (what many people do every year despite hoping for better luck). Just not shooting does not necessarily mean the person was not "hunting". I don't know if there is any clear line as to where "hunting" begins. Maybe when they help spot/stalk an animal? Maybe if they help call an animal? Maybe it is as far back as assisting someone getting to where that other person is hunting such as helping transport their gear (I personally don't think this would apply, but you never know for sure....).

              If someone wants to come along and make sure not to assist the hunter in the taking of game (I guess similar to when you can use electronic communication devices - yes, another topic, I know...), more power to them, but if there is any thought that they might assist the hunter, I would have them get a license to cover that interpretation.

              Just my view.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Alaskacanoe View Post
                There is no law that says you need to have a drivers license, Unless of course you are driving a car. ( that is a privelige and not a right)
                There is no law that says you have to have a drivers license to purchase a hunting or fishing license,
                You are Protected by federal laws on that one..but they do put a space in the license for that number to be placed.
                My grandmother never drove a car and never had a drivers license ,, EVER,, and no matter what.... she did not need one as the Federal laws protected her from having to get any form of ID .
                Federal laws protect each of us from the state. If a LEO asks for your drivers license when you are not driving a vehicle you do not have to produce it. He should have respect for the fact that we live with that freedom.
                If you are asked to produce a ID or Drivers license in the field, when you decline the officer should have respect for your right to not have to produce any such document. And UNDERSTAND That without any thought otherwise... Its your right,, the very rights he vowed to uphold when he became an officer.
                Again He should not have prejudice against you if you do not want to produce for him a license or a Identification card.
                A hunting license is a privelige so you need one of those if you are in the act of hunting or have harvested an animal. But You do not need to produce any other document as to who you are.
                I have folks that come to my place to purchase fishing licenses and when they see that space for them to put the drivers license number down, they usually do it very willingly and without any thought.
                If they forgot their drivers license and say.... left it in the car, the rush out to get it,, no questions ask...
                This perplexes me personally as I know that We as citizens do not have to produce any ID. Please folks, do not forget you have rights and that our LEO's should have respect for those rights.
                Seems we just accept what ever is asked of us sometimes without thinking it all thru.
                Just be honest when talking to a officer, but know that you have rights and do not let anyone disrespect your rights... When that happens, If a LEO tries to force you or pressure you they are in the wrong... Yes, They have no right to suspect you of any wrong due,,,, because you do not give them a Drivers license. Each Officer ,, again swore to uphold the laws, and the law says you do not have to have a drivers license to be a citizen of this country, and even if you have a drivers license or ID card, you are not required to produce it ...
                nothing wrong with not saying anything.
                That is your right and should be respected..
                My wifes nephew is an attorney and he gives out cards to anyone he comes in contact with , the cards have his name and phone number and these words.
                MY RIGHTS CARD
                I am giving you this card because I do not wish
                to speak to you or have any further contact with
                you. I choose to exercise my right to remain
                silent and to refuse to answer your questions.
                If you arrest me, I will continue to exercise my
                right to remain silent and to refuse to answer
                your questions. I want to speak with a lawyer
                before answering your questions.
                Page 2 of the Hunting Regulations Book states
                If an Alaska Wildlife Trooper, Alaska State Trooper, Police Officer or authorized Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) employee asks to see your license, tags, harvest permits, game, or any equipment used to take game, you must show any or all of these items
                If I'm not mistaken the same applies to any state issued drivers license or identification card.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Always be honest. If you are hunting then you need a license to hunt. But there is no Federal law that says any person needs to have a drivers license or state ID .. It is against the law to attempt to force people to have a drivers license or State ID. You are not required to show a drivers license unless you are driving a vehicle. And you are never required to show your personal ID.
                  Yes give them your Hunting or fishing license to the officer if that is the activity you are doing. Again.. you do not need to give them your drivers license or ID at the same time, and if they ask? then just say No.. They have no right to suspect you of anything other than using your rights as a citizen of this country. Again... The officer held up his hand and pledged to protect the laws of the state and country when he was sworn in. He at that time acknowledged that a person has the right to not give him personel ID or Drivers license. Federal trumps State..
                  Page 2 of the Hunting Regulations Book states

                  If an Alaska Wildlife Trooper, Alaska State Trooper, Police Officer or authorized Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) employee asks to see your license, tags, harvest permits, game, or any equipment used to take game, you must show any or all of these items


                  If I'm not mistaken the same applies to any state issued drivers license or identification card.
                  A few years ago the State decided on there own to put in the little box where it says "Drivers license/ state ID number" on the fish and game license the word " Required". That was tested and found to not be legitmate per protection laws,,so This of course is no longer on the license, but notice that in the box next to the Drivers license number is the " Telephone Number" box, and in lighter ink it says " Optional" as to suggest that all other fields need to be filled in, but the phone number is optional... its a trick to help get folks to suppose all fields have to be filled in except for the phone number.
                  What if you are like grandma and never got a drivers license or a state ID card? What would you do? would this be legal to keep grandma from purchasing a state fishing license? Think about it...???.
                  Remember those old world war II movies where the car pulls up to the Nazi check point and the SS declares the need to see all the papers of everyone in the car? Well,, those folks had no federal protection... and although back here in the good old USA an officer may ask for everyones ID in the car. the only one that needs to show ID is the driver. everyone else can just say no.
                  Give him your name if asked, but no need to produce your ID as you dont even have to have one if you dont want to ...
                  some of you would say.." well heck,, what have you got to hide? just give him what he asks for, things will go smoother if we do."
                  It should go smooth even if you tell the officer no !
                  He swore to uphold the law and you are entitled to not having or showing ID to anyone. He is a poor example of the protector of your rights if he takes exception to you electing to not produce documents for him.
                  Now.. you do not have a RIGHT to get on an Airplane at a commercial airport.. that is a privilege, so you have to have ID to expedite your travel thru the check in line at the airport. ,, but,, even without your ID, you can still get on an airplane if you ask for assistance in the matter. The airport has staff to handle those that forgot to bring ID or do not have ID.
                  Being honest is part of your responsibility when approached by and officer. No reason to be rude or anything like that.
                  When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

                  Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    """But there is no Federal law that says any person needs to have a drivers license or state ID"""


                    Tell that to the Holiday Station worker!!! You "WILL NOT" get a Can of "Copenhagen" without an ID that can be"Scanned" first. Gov'ment Issue ID at that!! It's Required for Chew!!!

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      At the end of the day barring the officer actually seeing you make a harvest it is what you say that will burn you. That is a lesson I got to learn the hard way when I was young and niaeve thinking that the troopers were out there just locking up "bad guys". If I have a non hunter along I will make it a point to not talk in generalities by using terms like "we" when the "friendly" officer asks his leading questions. As soon as your partner says "We have been hunting for 3 days and haven't seen a thing!" He has implicated a the nonhunter in a crime and opened the door for a ticket. So for me if there is even the slightest room for the officer to interpret a potential violation I will pretty much shut the heck up. I will simply state that I am not hunting and don't wish to speak with him any further. As was mentioned earlier, they will approach you with out lights and chat, if you provide evidence (probably cause) that there may be a violation then they will detain you and go from there. If you are positive you are good to go then do what you want. I got my issue resolved after a visit to the FWT office in Palmer and they dropped it though the charge still shows up in court view as "dismissed" it sure would be nice if it wasn't there at all.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by anchskier View Post
                        What I see from your post is the you are making "shooting" = "hunting". I tend to think of those as different, albight no completely independant, activities. You can shoot without hunting (target shooting) and hunt without shooting (what many people do every year despite hoping for better luck). Just not shooting does not necessarily mean the person was not "hunting". I don't know if there is any clear line as to where "hunting" begins. Maybe when they help spot/stalk an animal? Maybe if they help call an animal? Maybe it is as far back as assisting someone getting to where that other person is hunting such as helping transport their gear (I personally don't think this would apply, but you never know for sure....).

                        If someone wants to come along and make sure not to assist the hunter in the taking of game (I guess similar to when you can use electronic communication devices - yes, another topic, I know...), more power to them, but if there is any thought that they might assist the hunter, I would have them get a license to cover that interpretation.

                        Just my view.
                        You are absolutely right as to no "clear line" about hunting, hiking and shooting. I'm pretty sure we're on the same page as to what constitutes hunting or shooting, and yes, I've managed to do the majority of my hunting without shooting (thus far anyway). When I stated - "Now, if you were to start shooting at animals while you were hiking with a firearm" - I wasn't referring to shooting at kaneetchas or targets, but more specifically to shooting at animals to eat. Folks will always be able to get away with stating "bear protection" when in fact they are actually out poaching game (or at least attempting to) but if we take away that right, then good folks will not be allowed to carry while camping or hiking with no intent to hunt and I feel that would be unfair and an erosion of our rights. There will always be poachers and the best way to handle that is to, whenever possible and proveable, prosecute them accordingly, to the extent of the law.


                        I realize that if one finds himself in this situation it could result in having to defend himself from accusations as much as it is true that one could find it irresistable to not take advantage of the circumstances if a big old bull walked out in front of his unlicensed self while knowing that his buddy could always punch it on his tag. I, personally find both of these situations unethical as it is just as unwarranted to falsly and without proof make accusations on someone as it is to poach wildlife. I suppose this must also extend to game calling although I have never found myself unlicensed or with someone who is unlicensed while calling game for someone else to hunt. Interesting point.

                        Personally, I wouldn't leave home without it. I buy my hunt, trap, fish, kingstamped license in January and it rides in my wallet, right under my drivers license until next January when I replace it with a new one. The drivers license is real handy for proving that it is in fact my hunting license if necessary. I like to hunt and would find it truly unfortunate to find myself packing someone else's hindquarter and having to pass up on a legal moose because I'm unarmed or unlicensed. Yikes.
                        If anything is going to happen, it'll happen out there.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          I spoke with a Fish and Game Minion last year about this very thing. My dad was up from 'Bama and wanted to balance his time afield with his time with his grandkids. To that end, he did not want to spend the cash that would force him to be consumed by a hunt. I was told there was no issue with my dad helping with all aspects of a hunt, except pulling the trigger.
                          The only thing that makes you a 'hunter' is actually taking, or attempting to take an animal.
                          Can I use my rifle scope to watch bald eagles fly around? Sure. Can I use my rifle scope to watch moose out of season? Sure. Can I shoot either? No, then I am doing something illegal. Also, on a side note, the few times I've been approached by LEO in the field I have always been courteous, prompt and brief. They seem to like people who are respectful and "free" with their information. By free I mean I answer their direct questions honestly and quickly with no added information that could lead to more questions.....
                          Before you go afield, call F&G, talk to a wildlife trooper, write his name down and what he said. Thank him for his time and go kill a moose!
                          Thank you, God, for making so many wonderful creatures. Thank you, not only for that, but also for making them out of meat!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Skagdog, i certainly don't want to be disrespecful. I did appreciate your thought.BUT just to clarify so young un's don't start a bad habit. One should NEVER point the rifle using the scope to identify something. Binoculars are the right tool for this. Many accidents have happened because the rifle scope was use. Ok,

                            Comment

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