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  • Interesting hunt planner thread on PV forum

    I'm not sure how many folks on here check the Pristine Ventures forum, but I've found this to be an interesting thread discussing hunt planners:

    http://www.pristineventures.com/cgi/...1235175785,s=0

    Anyone here ever run into a situation like this?
    sigpic

  • #2
    Yep. I also bet that I know the air taxi and the general area that guy was looking at too.

    The air taxi makes money providing quality hunting opportunities to it's customers. They manage the resource by not over crowding their landing strips that they use, use only certain strips for guide customers, and certain strips for hunt planners like Larry's opperation, and certain strips for the air taxi's general population customers. I certainly didn't get hosed by using a strip that the air taxi picke for me. It worked out extremely well and I will use them again.


    There is nothing to stop you from using these same strips if you have a way to get there. You probably aren't going to convince another commercial opperation to get you in there though.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

    Comment


    • #3
      Yep, gotta love Alaska's hunting rules, those posted and those not posted. Fishing is the same too.

      I've seen things like this all over, but especially here in Alaska. Just reading the regulations should clue in anyone that there is some funny business going on here. There seems to be a whole bunch of "back scratching" going on.

      Don't get me wrong, I've done well here with hunting and fishing and I do appreciate the opportunities I've been given in my short time here. I've only been here about 3 years and I'm relocating to the lower 48 soon. Seriously though, this wink... wink... nod... nod system, shouldn't be allowed. Let the biologist and other state game managers run things.

      Comment


      • #4
        Not ALL hunt planners do this!

        Just a word of clarification here; I am a commercial hunt planner, but I do not lock up areas, or make agreements with air charter services to keep other hunters out (so please.... don't paint all "hunt planners" with the same brush). On the other hand, I do ask the air service if they intend to drop other hunters on top of a group I place in the field, and if they do, I go elsewhere or use a different charter service. I do this with my own personal hunts too. But this is vastly different from overtly keeping other hunters out of an area.

        If I did this as a registered guide, I would lose my license, and rightly so.

        Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it illegal for a charter operator to refuse to carry someone to an area they want to go? I heard that a long time ago, but I'm not sure.

        -Mike
        Michael Strahan
        Site Owner
        Alaska Hunt Consultant
        1 (907) 229-4501

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Michael Strahan View Post
          Just a word of clarification here; I am a commercial hunt planner, but I do not lock up areas, or make agreements with air charter services to keep other hunters out (so please.... don't paint all "hunt planners" with the same brush). On the other hand, I do ask the air service if they intend to drop other hunters on top of a group I place in the field, and if they do, I go elsewhere or use a different charter service. I do this with my own personal hunts too. But this is vastly different from overtly keeping other hunters out of an area.

          If I did this as a registered guide, I would lose my license, and rightly so.

          Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it illegal for a charter operator to refuse to carry someone to an area they want to go? I heard that a long time ago, but I'm not sure.

          -Mike
          Sounds reasonable Mike. As a "hunt planner" for myself I ask the same thing of air taxis I work with and I've found that to be pretty standard policy for most of them throughout the state.

          As I read the PV thread it made me wonder how many hunt planners there are out there. In addition, are there booking agents out there booking non-guided, drop off hunts for individuals and do you consider them hunt planners?

          Lots of interesting stuff here and I appreciate your willingness to discuss this segment of the hunting industry.
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chisana View Post
            Sounds reasonable Mike. As a "hunt planner" for myself I ask the same thing of air taxis I work with and I've found that to be pretty standard policy for most of them throughout the state.

            As I read the PV thread it made me wonder how many hunt planners there are out there. In addition, are there booking agents out there booking non-guided, drop off hunts for individuals and do you consider them hunt planners?

            Lots of interesting stuff here and I appreciate your willingness to discuss this segment of the hunting industry.
            Chisana,

            Hunt planning is a strange duck. As far as I know, there are only three commercial hunt planners who call themselves "hunt planners" and offer personal assistance directly to hunters. All three of us have some similarities, and some major differences. From there you get others who offer different levels of help. Some of these are the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, some air charter companies, books, videos and other resources.

            In the end it's all about what the hunter needs.

            I am more than happy to discuss this, and the related issues.

            -Mike
            Michael Strahan
            Site Owner
            Alaska Hunt Consultant
            1 (907) 229-4501

            Comment


            • #7
              Same thing?

              Mike,
              If you give a bush pilot a significant amount of business and you do so every year, don't you think he will "self regulate?" He knows you may go elsewhere and use a different flight service if he flies other groups into the same area as your group. He will try to keep a good, repeat customer (you) happy at the expense of others who may only use him once in a lifetime.:confused:

              Comment


              • #8
                Not exactly

                Patrick,

                In your senario, the pilot is simply helping a prefered customer (the hunt planner). The hunt planner is the one trying to "self regulate" an area by influencing air taxis. I may be way off here, but this is where I see the problem. We are talking about public land, right?

                Comment


                • #9
                  tough cookie

                  I think that this is a tough one all the way around and there is many ways to look at this. I don't think that there is one right perfect answer but it seems that ethics would and should make up a big part of this..
                  Semper Fi and God Bless

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This only means that Larry's services are more valuable knowing that air taxi's give him exclusive rights to certain areas. It also prevents cetain areas that Larry uses from getting over hunted.

                    Why would a hunt planner send clients to areas that anyone could fly into? That means they have to compete with any joe smoe off the street.

                    B

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                    • #11
                      a shake of hands

                      I do not know the transporter and have only spoken to Larry a couple of times and traded some e-mails with him.

                      While I have never done business with Larry (and he was trying to sell me a service), I did find him ethical and honest in his dealings with me.
                      I think Larry and his transporter have probably entered into a symbiotic relationship, one that benefits both. I'll bet it is not written down nor does money change hands based solely on the deal.

                      When I fly to Anchorage I sometimes get told the seats are sold out, but for a little extra $$ I can move to 1st class and get a seat. I also have the option of finding another airline-some of which may not service my intended destination. I have other options. I do not think that Alaska Airlines has plotted with other hunters against me, only that they are doing whatever is best for business, legally.
                      I applaud the respectful way in which this discussion is being carried out.

                      P.S. I have used Lost Creek and will again!
                      Nick Clegg
                      Husband, Father, Hunter,
                      Usually in that order
                      http://nixoutdoorpursuits.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JHardy View Post
                        This only means that Larry's services are more valuable knowing that air taxi's give him exclusive rights to certain areas. It also prevents cetain areas that Larry uses from getting over hunted.

                        Why would a hunt planner send clients to areas that anyone could fly into? That means they have to compete with any joe smoe off the street.

                        B
                        Hardy,

                        I think you are correct concerning the financial motivation. Nobody is going to turn away business, especially in today's economy.

                        As to your comment about keeping areas from becoming over-hunted, this is the job of the Board of Game and the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, not commercial operators. If we left it in the hands of commercial operators, everything would be sold off and shot out eventually, simply because not all commercial operators are making business decisions along ethical lines. Furthermore, such an assumption presumes that the commercial operators have a good working knowledge of all the biological and environmental factors necessary to make harvest decisions. Simply put, they don't. And really, would you want to put such decisions in the hands of someone who stands to make money on the outcome? I wouldn't.

                        As to why someone would want to fly with an outfit that places you where others can go, well, that's just the way it is in a country where we all share equal rights to the resource. A better question would be this: "Would you want the entire state locked up by commercial operators who will dictate if you could hunt at all, when you could go, where you could go, and how much it would cost you? In the example given, if it is correct, a group of hunters was told that the charter operator would not take them to a specific location. If they are the only commercial operator in that area, the hunters are out of luck. If not, the hunters are free to seek other transportation.

                        As I mentioned earlier, the current guide regulations expressly prohibit guides from keeping other hunters out of "their" area, specifically because the land and the resource belongs to the general public; not the commercial operators, whether they are guides, transporters, air taxis, or hunt planners. I would be very interested in knowing whether this regulation applies to the air charters / transporters.

                        -Mike
                        Michael Strahan
                        Site Owner
                        Alaska Hunt Consultant
                        1 (907) 229-4501

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          i find this ironic that folks get all buttered up when an air taxi won't fly them into an area because of a guide. But this hunt planner has the same situation and guys are supporting him and backing him up and or on the fence with how they feel about it....
                          can we say...double standard???
                          Www.blackriverhunting.com
                          Master guide 212

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            capitalism

                            Jake,
                            I have never paid for a guide or hunt planner, so I am screwed either way. I was pointing out that even without overt scheming to keep others out, business realities can make it happen anyway.
                            Hopefully hunt planners (all of them) do not want to put clients on top of each other, so they limit the number of people in any given area. They need to do that because it gives the client a better experience and is good for business.
                            The air charters try to keep long-term repeat customers (guides and planners) happy, so they do not do something that they know will piss off the long-term repeat customer- like placing too many people in one area.
                            As Mike Strahan said above, "I do ask the air service if they intend to drop other hunters on top of a group I place in the field, and if they do, I go elsewhere or use a different charter service."
                            I am sure there are guides (and maybe planners) who overtly try to keep others out of "their" areas and coerce their transporters into limiting access. That is wrong and hopefully illegal. The Pristine Ventures example does NOT fall into this category.
                            Either intentionally or unintentionally the result can be the same. Without other transporters competing in the same area there are no alternatives and the area is locked up. Competition is what keeps capitalism fair. Monopolies or limited competition are rarely fair. That is why brown bear and sheep hunts can demand such high premiums. It is also why it cost more to charter a plane into sheep country during hunting season than it does during the spring. Demand exceeds supply.
                            On the other hand, if there are lots of transporters and competition is keen, the experience and possibly game populations can suffer. When the Mulchatna herd was at it's peak, there were lots of transporters and it was common for groups to get dumped on top of each other. Competition kept the prices low, but the experience itself was sometimes also diminished.
                            On yet another side, if there is not enough demand to make an operation profitable, the service will not be available. No guide can afford to offer quality brown bear hunts for $2,000. (If I am wrong, let me know where to get it!)
                            It sucks that money drives the world since I do not have lots of money. If I were rich, it would be a great system to keep others from ruining my areas and my hunting experience. Who said life is fair? How do we get around this or fix it?
                            Patrick

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                            • #15
                              The taxi is free to do whatever he chooses. If you don't like it, figure out another way.

                              I've not yet faced this situation, but I'm going to have a rough time moving on from hunting areas "locked up" in this way. Stubborn, I guess.

                              Anything stopping you from hiring another licensed transporter from farther away and springing for the extra dough? Some kind of professional courtesy on their part?

                              Comment

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