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  • #46
    ATV "abuse" is a key issue BHA works on. And it's always been contentious and controversial advocating that we DO need some form of further regulations in certain places to curb said abuse. But just in the last few interior BOG cycles you are seeing more and more local F&G advisory committees proposing some kind of motorized restriction/regulation in their areas. Because what they are seeing locally is not the type of hunting, or the type of landscape they want to see.

    But the BOG is reluctant to pass any new CUAs or motorized restrictions, because most hunters don't want that.

    And there is the dilemma we face as a group. What most hunters want or don't want. How hunting has changed, how hunters overall have changed. And where any arbitrary line may be when enough finally becomes too much, when "use" becomes "abuse."

    I applaud Schandelmeier for trying to at least open up a discussion on the subject. Couldn't come from someone more respected imo overall as a person and longtime Alaskan hunter/trapper.
    Mark Richards
    www.residenthuntersofalaska.org

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    • #47
      Originally posted by bushrat View Post
      ATV "abuse" is a key issue BHA works on. And it's always been contentious and controversial advocating that we DO need some form of further regulations in certain places to curb said abuse. But just in the last few interior BOG cycles you are seeing more and more local F&G advisory committees proposing some kind of motorized restriction/regulation in their areas. Because what they are seeing locally is not the type of hunting, or the type of landscape they want to see.

      But the BOG is reluctant to pass any new CUAs or motorized restrictions, because most hunters don't want that.

      And there is the dilemma we face as a group. What most hunters want or don't want. How hunting has changed, how hunters overall have changed. And where any arbitrary line may be when enough finally becomes too much, when "use" becomes "abuse."

      I applaud Schandelmeier for trying to at least open up a discussion on the subject. Couldn't come from someone more respected imo overall as a person and longtime Alaskan hunter/trapper.




      Well Said Mark,,,,, The German.:topjob:
      [ USMC 1st Marine Div. 7th Engineers, VietNam 69-71, Semper-Fi ] :topjob:

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      • #48
        In the mean while, we should add Schandelmeier's terminology to the urban dictionary so we can get past the verbiage and back on topic.

        I have rode with several people who have aggressive tire tread as well as 900 + CC engines and tell you that when rode properly neither of these excessively tear up trails. However, I have also rode with those that feel that they must spin tires and wallow in mud holes to cross them or widen trails because they lack the experience or confidence in crossing them.

        Providing a riding course as a requirement like Hunter education may solve some problems but I am sure that there are many who ride with poor attitude that no course is going to stop. One thing is for sure though, if something doesn't change, there will soon be tighter restrictions.


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Hoyt-Hunter View Post
          In the mean while, we should add Schandelmeier's terminology to the urban dictionary so we can get past the verbiage and back on topic.

          I have rode with several people who have aggressive tire tread as well as 900 + CC engines and tell you that when rode properly neither of these excessively tear up trails. However, I have also rode with those that feel that they must spin tires and wallow in mud holes to cross them or widen trails because they lack the experience or confidence in crossing them.

          Providing a riding course as a requirement like Hunter education may solve some problems but I am sure that there are many who ride with poor attitude that no course is going to stop. One thing is for sure though, if something doesn't change, there will soon be tighter restrictions.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

          Tighter restriction are needed and way over due. This also goes for restrictions of Boats and airboats thru spawning grounds in shallow rivers and creeks. Fish and Game themselves are some of the worst offenders.

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          • #50
            I confess to being, for now at least, somewhat amazed and amused in reading this thread, having seen/battled the poor outcome for habitats and the demonstrably errant process in the Knik River Watershed and especially regarding the damaging impacts on the valuable Jim Swan Wetlands.
            Change comes hard. The politics/special interests/biases of record that put the KRPUA model in place are institutionalized in this state. There has been far, far more than 'on the ground' abuses. Much of it takes place in offices.
            If you want to see the places we hunt and fish remain sustainable and varied user groups realize any modicum of equity, it will take dedicated, concerted and organized work - as this example has surely demonstrated.

            Near 30 yrs. after initially becoming actively concerned I am struggling to come to grips with the ongoing (too rapid!) loss of one of my favorite places - a place I wished sustainable for my children and grandchildren. It turned out that 'most' hunters and a few other interests were/are more concerned with their 'rights' to be irresponsible. They 'won'. Original values are often no longer attainable beyond certain levels of abuse, yet too few seem to care.

            I, too, appreciate Schandelmeier's efforts.
            Writing things like this in 2004 garnered threats and spawned campaigns of misinformation. Some of the comments he has received approach those memories.

            Again, IMO - And as a bare minimum starting point, identifying numbers need be on these machines!
            "Punish the monkey - let the organ grinder go" - Mark Knopfler

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            • #51
              Originally posted by 68 Bronco View Post
              I confess to being, for now at least, somewhat amazed and amused in reading this thread, having seen/battled the poor outcome for habitats and the demonstrably errant process in the Knik River Watershed and especially regarding the damaging impacts on the valuable Jim Swan Wetlands.
              Change comes hard. The politics/special interests/biases of record that put the KRPUA model in place are institutionalized in this state. There has been far, far more than 'on the ground' abuses. Much of it takes place in offices.
              If you want to see the places we hunt and fish remain sustainable and varied user groups realize any modicum of equity, it will take dedicated, concerted and organized work - as this example has surely demonstrated.

              Near 30 yrs. after initially becoming actively concerned I am struggling to come to grips with the ongoing (too rapid!) loss of one of my favorite places - a place I wished sustainable for my children and grandchildren. It turned out that 'most' hunters and a few other interests were/are more concerned with their 'rights' to be irresponsible. They 'won'. Original values are often no longer attainable beyond certain levels of abuse, yet too few seem to care.

              I, too, appreciate Schandelmeier's efforts.
              Writing things like this in 2004 garnered threats and spawned campaigns of misinformation. Some of the comments he has received approach those memories.

              Again, IMO - And as a bare minimum starting point, identifying numbers need be on these machines!

              I agree Bronco, when I fly around in the Susitna and Mat-Su valley I am amazed at how things have changed in the last 30 years. I've lived in the valley since 1969 and moved out to Alexander 15 years ago to get a way from it. Not too bad here except during Moose hunting season and coming across the game refuge on the way home in the winter. You have all kinds of them side by side machines ripping and a roaring all the way to Figure eight lake. Very few of them take it easy on the trail except people that have kids it seems. Very frustrating to watch.

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              • #52
                Open up more areas of the state via new roads and fix the tier I issue and this isn't a problem.

                Lemme guess... the same ones crowing for new taxes, registration and regulation will be against any new roads or development too.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by tccak71 View Post
                  Open up more areas of the state via new roads and fix the tier I issue and this isn't a problem.

                  Lemme guess... the same ones crowing for new taxes, registration and regulation will be against any new roads or development too.



                  Yep! except for the Townie! Although the only reason I would be for new taxes is to be able to pay for what the Townie tears up!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by tccak71 View Post
                    Open up more areas of the state via new roads and fix the tier I issue and this isn't a problem.

                    Lemme guess... the same ones crowing for new taxes, registration and regulation will be against any new roads or development too.
                    Actually, I view this in a different light altogether;

                    While opening up more places to go (which I am not at all against, depending on wise choices) could indeed alleviate some pressures, it does not really address/solve the 'problem'. Subjecting to the same abuses more areas that may well be as valuable as ones we are currently destroying only expands the damages, prolonging the problems. There are a finite number of productive habitats to wipe out and ones that need attention - now.
                    Your solution would also likely add far more tax burden than the ones being 'crowed' about.
                    Roads are super expensive.

                    Do you (or anyone) have a cohesive argument against a citizen being able to identify a lawbreaker?
                    I am referencing simple registration here (included above in your 'guess') which could actually add to the State's coffers.

                    I want to be able to nail that rider seen tearing up and down a salmon stream or shooting/wasting that illegal moose, per the laws we already have - personal responsibility rather than an anonymous wrongdoer disappearing into the sunset. I don't see this as a total solution, but it could prompt a shift in some attitudes.

                    Fixing the Tier 1 circus seems a worthy topic.
                    "Punish the monkey - let the organ grinder go" - Mark Knopfler

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by alexander View Post
                      Yep! except for the Townie! Although the only reason I would be for new taxes is to be able to pay for what the Townie tears up!
                      And here I thought you said you drank that last bottle of rum.......
                      Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by alexander View Post
                        Yep! except for the Townie! Although the only reason I would be for new taxes is to be able to pay for what the Townie tears up!
                        Great contribution. So, you're willing to pay those taxes?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by 68 Bronco View Post
                          While opening up more places to go (which I am not at all against, depending on wise choices) could indeed alleviate some pressures, it does not really address/solve the 'problem'. Subjecting to the same abuses more areas that may well be as valuable as ones we are currently destroying only expands the damages, prolonging the problems. There are a finite number of productive habitats to wipe out and ones that need attention - now.
                          Yup. When was the last time that opening up a new area, actually relieved pressure on existing areas, and didn't simply result in more widespread damage to the habitat? Hasn't that been the mantra since Europeans landed at Plymouth Rock? How did that whole opening up the West thing work out after we trashed the East Coast? "Opening up new land" has always meant "unleashing the teeming hoards to trash another piece of territory. The L-48 is long since done in; Alaska is circling the drain. "North, to the future!"
                          ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
                          I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
                          The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It

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                          • #58
                            I've never seen the events you guys are talking about as I haven't wandered in that neck of the woods, but I've seen what the guys/gals here in Kodiak do, especially in the local streams here in Bells Flats alone. I talked to guys that were complaing about how amazing the silver fishing use to be on the Russain here, then watched the same guys 5 minutes later go tearing up the river bed where the silvers were spawning. Having a number on the back to take a picture of while he's balsting up the spawning gravel would've been nice. Same goes with deer hunting, all my buddies are talking about spookiy deer or not being able to find anything, but when you ask where the went "We road around on such n such". Figures, as soon as I can't hear ATV's riding around deer magically appear.
                            Life's too short for an ugly boat

                            Blaze N Abel Charters
                            Kodiak, AK
                            www.alaska-fish.com
                            https://www.facebook.com/BlazeNAbelCharters/?fref=ts

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 68 Bronco View Post
                              Do you (or anyone) have a cohesive argument against a citizen being able to identify a lawbreaker?
                              I am referencing simple registration here (included above in your 'guess') which could actually add to the State's coffers.
                              I haven't seen a compelling argument to register atv's either. Reminds me of gun control; 99.9+% are doing the right thing and just want to be left alone, but everyone gets lumped into one big group and everyone wants to bring big government down on all of us for the indiscretions of a few.

                              No. There isn't one good reason to register atvs. How many snowmachiners have been turned in? What's the prosecution rate? Point made. Waste of time and effort. Since when can do-gooder's determine what is safe? What is legal? How fast is too fast to cross a stream? It would never work and is impractical. It would lead to abuse by the greenies too. They look to exploit any and all laws to shut down motorized access. Protect what we have and open more trails.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by alexander View Post
                                Yep! except for the Townie! Although the only reason I would be for new taxes is to be able to pay for what the Townie tears up!
                                I've seen the "Remoties" tear up a lot also.
                                Ignorance is not Bliss, it's insanity

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