When does it become harassment?

[cusackla]

When does it become harassment?
Here is the deal:
I had been eyeing this drainage for a couple of years. I usually do my bait station location scouting in the fall, betting on streams with good salmon runs, grass flats, skunk cabbage and fiddlehead ferns. This particular drainage is a place where I have spotted bears on the hill side in both spring and fall.

I placed a station here on April 15th last year, put my signs out and had another hunter place a half-drum station about 20 yards away and in clear sight of my station. I had also noticed another station in the fall that had a stand (still in place) and I placed a sign at the trail head of their location to notify them (if they were still using the location) that I was in the area. This group placed their bait and hunted and I did not hear a peep from them or have a word of conflict with them.

Fast-Forward to this year. Since the close proximity to shore and my signs seemed to attract too much attention, I moved my station further up the drainage and did not post any signs on the shore-line.

The 2nd trip in to add bait to my station, I come out from baiting and here is this boat circling my boat with a irate hunter yelling at me about hunting off of his station and about not honoring his signs that have been placed sometime between when I 1st setup my station and when I returned to add bait. The guy did not even try to have a decent discussion to see if we may have an opportunity to work something out and I tried to explain to the guy that his signs were not there when I placed the station and that I was up the drainage from him, but he did not want to discuss it. He never would tell me when he placed his signs or put in his station.

He was yelling about hunting ethics and how long he has been hunting the area before he even new the circumstances. This happened several times during the season. It seems like this was the same crew that hunted the established location in 2010. I found it funny that they did not have any problem walking by my signs in 2010 and setting up their station, but in 2011 when they thought they had beat me to the location they seem to have a big problem with it.
I know what it is like to loose a honey hole and I can appreciate their frustration, but I never assumed that I was the only person that could scout location and that the only reason someone else picked the spot is because I am there. That’s just stupid!

Alaska is primarily public hunting, why do some people think they own the place? Heck! If you want private hunting get a homestead or lease some private land!

So! Here is my question. When does this become harassment? I tried to reason with these guys to no avail.

Did you ever notice that the people that are the 1st to mention ethics are the last to have them?

[AGL4now]

Sounds like you need to join ABBA.

[Akres]

Did you ever notice that the people that are the 1st to mention ethics are the last to have them?[/FONT]

Yes...often. But mostly here on this forum...other places not so much! For some reason the Holier Than Thou crew seems to gravitate here.
Too bad about your bait site...Yes...You were being harrassed...It was illegal and you should have placed them under arrest.

[cusackla]

Sounds like you need to join ABBA.

U are correct. I have actually been meaning too!

[BrentC]

We had a little different situation this year. We had our bait set out early, and the bears were working it hard enough to empty the barrels in a week. When we came to start hunting, we started seeing several boats in the area. We didn't think much of it at first, because as you stated it's public hunting. Anyway, we went out to check our bait stations in different areas, and upon return to our camp we noticed a couple boats beached awfully close to where one of our bait station access points. We proceeded to see what was happening there, and sure enough, a couple guys were cleaning and skinning a bear no closer than 20 feet from our bait station. They claimed they shot it on the beach and it ran up and died by our bait barrel. We had a good chat with them for several minutes and let them know our frustration. They ended up leaving the area soon after, but the damage had been done.

We soon figured out what had happened to our bait stations between the time we set them out, and the time we returned. Not only was the bait cleaned out, the bears were cleaned off them as well. Apparently our signs meant "come hunt here, we have bears".

[cusackla]

We had a little different situation this year. We had our bait set out early, and the bears were working it hard enough to empty the barrels in a week. When we came to start hunting, we started seeing several boats in the area. We didn't think much of it at first, because as you stated it's public hunting. Anyway, we went out to check our bait stations in different areas, and upon return to our camp we noticed a couple boats beached awfully close to where one of our bait station access points. We proceeded to see what was happening there, and sure enough, a couple guys were cleaning and skinning a bear no closer than 20 feet from our bait station. They claimed they shot it on the beach and it ran up and died by our bait barrel. We had a good chat with them for several minutes and let them know our frustration. They ended up leaving the area soon after, but the damage had been done.

We soon figured out what had happened to our bait stations between the time we set them out, and the time we returned. Not only was the bait cleaned out, the bears were cleaned off them as well. Apparently our signs meant "come hunt here, we have bears".

BrentC:
That was why I moved further up the drainage and did not post on the shoreline. One thought was if I keep them in the drainage, less people may see them and the other was that they would be less wary without all of the boat noise and people traffic. I had one group camping in front of my sign last year, they were dropped off by a transporter couldn't really blame them, but I was sure uncomfortable with having campers that close to my station. uncomfortable for them that is.
I spoke with them, they were actually pretty good guys

[BrentC]

Great points. Lessons learned for sure.

We didn't do anything different than what we had done in years past. There were a lot of things different this year though. Traffic being one of them. We saw more bear hunters in the area than previous years combined.

It all turned out fine. We filled our tags with good bears and had a great time. It was just frustrating knowing how much effort goes into getting to our locations, fuel costs, bait costs and such, only to have other folks come in and use our sites.

[cusackla]

Great points. Lessons learned for sure.

We didn't do anything different than what we had done in years past. There were a lot of things different this year though. Traffic being one of them. We saw more bear hunters in the area than previous years combined.

It all turned out fine. We filled our tags with good bears and had a great time. It was just frustrating knowing how much effort goes into getting to our locations, fuel costs, bait costs and such, only to have other folks come in and use our sites.

BrentC, I hear you. We saw a ton of traffic as well, but it did seem like most people were scouting from the boat and did not hit the beach unless they spotted a bear.
We had a great season. We did not fill all of our tags, but we were being very selective and passed on several bears that most would love to take.
I did learn one lesson this year that I found surprising. I moved one of my stations about 400 yards and down in a bottom from where it was last year to get in a more isolated location. I figured no problem, I can pull them in. Wrong!
Last year the bears were crossing an opening coming into my station, but we could not see the opening from the stand. This year I placed the stand where we could watch both the opening and the station. We sat there and watched 3 different bears that crossed the opening heading to last years location the never showed up on the station when we were there or on the trail camera. Last year I could not keep bait on the station, this year I could not get rid of it. There seemed to be just as many bears as last year, but for some reason those bears just did not like where that station was setup. I had plenty of scent out and I know they knew it was there. Heck! I ran a solid string of black molasses clear across the opening and straight to the drum. I had bait'em anise bells out, cooked popcorn and burnt honey. O Yea! They knew it was there alright. Guess you know what I will do next year :-)

Here is one I let pass for one more year. I got him on trail camera last year. Saw him twice this year, but he just needed one more year to be a real Pig, si I let him walk. Hopefully I will see him again next year. you don't see these white V's to often in the country I hunt.

[BrentC]

Here's a photo of my wife's 2009 bear has a similar V on his chest. It's not a great picture, but you get the point. I haven't seen one quite like it since. I've seen smaller V's and several with white patches, but none of the V's have been nearly as distinctive as hers. I do find it interesting to continue seeing bears as they progress in age and size. We've seen quite a few repeat customers that we've let go in the past.

[cusackla]

That is a really nice bear.

[akgun&ammo]

One year I gave Steve permission to hunt my stand. He came back, and said "there is a bear carcuss lying by the barrel". When I went up, most of the meat was ate off the bones, and I had a smelly mess to clean-up at my bait station. I also found a cartridge case that was left in the stand. About two weeks later a customer comes into the shop with photos of his bear shot w/ so and so creek outfitters. I told him he was sitting in the left hand chair using a 30.06. He said, " How did you know?". I said, "easy, you were on my stand, - without permission!" You could plainly see my barrel, and it was clearly marked in his photos. He paid $500 to be taken out to a baited stand, and have them skin the bear. It really irked me they left all the meat right there by the barrel. Talked to the troopers, and all they said was, "still not enough evidence of fowl play."

Chris

[JOAT]

Good gawd... so the combination of the carcasss, shell casing, eye witness, and photographic evidence is not enough?!? No wonder the only citations that fish-n-features write are for crossing a salmon stream with an ATV or being 1 clam over the limit.

It is the onslaught of stories just like this one that make me hate anyone who claims to be a guide or an "outfitter".

:mad:

[STEELHED]

It is the onslaught of stories just like this one that make me hate anyone who claims to be a guide or an "outfitter".

:mad:

Really?!?! That might be the dumbest thing I have ever seen here........

[akgun&ammo]

I have seen good guides, great guides, and awfull guides, legal guides and some that pushed the gray area. That particular guide had no problem putting hunters on somebody else's stand and bait. Yes, I could prove the hunter hunted the stand without permission- but could not prove that a guide took him there on just his say so. He paid the "outfitters" cash for the bear hunt. I did not press charges against the hunter (could have), didn't figure it was his legal fault for making a mistake picking a guide. Do figure it is the hunter's responsiblity to know where he is hunting though. The great guides I have gone with have given locations and one even provided a map of his hunting area. I know one bear bait guide who shows stand photos, average bear photos, and the chance "monster" boar photo before he ever takes any money.
That said, I have been taken by a several of guides (more than I would like to admit), but I have also had some of the best times of my life hunting with a guide. We still talk about hunting with Tom Kirstein on Kodiak for deer. On that hunt the best buck taken by my partner was a 6 point 2 1/2 year old. And one of my bucks was only a button. Weather was nasty, snow, rain, wet, cold, and windy. (read here: Hunting was tough) Every morning Tom was there with a smile. He went way above what we had agreed and paid for.
I will still use guides for those special hunts. But, I tend to ask for a little more than a handshake promise anymore.
The only bad name you'll hear outa me on a guide; will be of ones I am sure break the law, or misrepresent themselves as guides.

Chris

[denalihunter]

The most surprising part of the story is that someone would yell at Cusackla. I can understand why they stayed in the boat and yelled at a distance. To your question, yes, it is harrassment in my opinion.