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Circles for sockeye

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  • #16
    Thanks for the info MD, i always down to try anything new!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by .338WM View Post
      "Elsewhere than IN it's mouth" , says it all. If the point of the hook penetrates from outside the mouth, the fish is hooked "elsewhere than IN the mouth" that is the definition. I know of no other way to explain it.
      Good point, I wasn't reading it literally. It clearly does not say "somewhere around the mouth"... :topjob:


      Doc, don't take my questions/comments as critisism, just wanted to make the legal nuance of this clear to folks. I for one have no problem stretching the regs in favor of NOT belly hooking fish. I'm definately going to give this a try.

      Thanks again!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RadFisher View Post
        Hey Doc. Does a certain type of knot have to be tied to the circle hook in order for it to work properly. The video links didn't give me a very clear look at how it's done with the yarn tied into the knot. Please give us more specifics or pics on how you tie them. Thanks!!!
        Snell them just like you would any Octopus-style salmon hook... either with a simple snell or an egg-loop bumper-style snell. Just make sure the leader exits the eye on the SAME side as the hook point. Look again at my photo and the still on the cover of the Moffitt vid to see what I mean. If you do it backward, your hook point will be completely shielded and never find an edge.... you won't hook squat!

        If you use the bumper style egg-loop knot, make only 2-3 wraps for the initial bumper portion. Then slip a small tuft of yarn in there. The more crowded the egg loop, the more exaggerated the angle of exit. This is what helps the circle to find and engage the edge necessary for a successful hookup.
        "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
        sigpic
        The KeenEye MD

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        • #19
          FishDoc - Good idea, but I'm surprised you said this technique works with or without the famous "Kenai rip". As all halibut anglers knows, circle hooks work best without a hook-set. That is, once you get a bite, just load up the rod and hang-on. Seems like the effectiveness of your technique would be improved without any hookset. But then again, I've never tried this......

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          • #20
            Here is an excerpt from last years ask a trooper post on this topic. Unfortunately the troopers either didn't see the questions or don't have a clear cut answer.
            Q.
            My question is about Reds....I see it a lot....If you foul hook a red in the gills....It is bleeding out bad, you know this fish is not going to live.....Are we required to still release it or should we keep him.....if it can't be brought back to life is it wanton waste?
            A.
            If you are participating in sport fishing and you are using sport fishing gear (hook and line), and you are fishing in fresh water, you are not allowed to keep a fish that is hooked elsewhere than in the mouth. Fish hooked elsewhere than in the mouth must be released immediately. The exception to this is in areas that have been designated as a "snagging" area within regulation.
            In this specific question, the fish is hooked in the gills and bleeding. You are still required to release the fish immediately with the least amount of harm to the fish. It would not be legal for you to possess a fish that was caught contrary to state law. So, it would not be wanton waste if you released the fish and it perished.
            Alaska Wildlife Troopers issue multiple snagging citations annually to people who keep fish hooked elsewhere than in the mouth. Simply put; in the mouth means, in the mouth.
            Thanks for the question, AWT
            Ultimately I believe that we need to modify the regs to read so that any part of the hook protrudes into the mouth. Be it point or shank. The literal interpretation of the word "in" could easily be cleared up with a minor change in the regulation wording. I would go on to clarify that the gill/gill plate, head, eyes, etc is NOT the mouth. I am generally for methods and means that best insure the escapement goals are reached and that over escapement is prevented. I don't see a requirement for the hook to penetrate from within the mouth to be in line with that objective. Reduced bag limits to ensure escapement and increase them to prevent overage. Placing a regulation constraint that reduced effectiveness of fishermen in an year like this one would be counterproductive.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cohoangler View Post
              FishDoc - Good idea, but I'm surprised you said this technique works with or without the famous "Kenai rip". As all halibut anglers knows, circle hooks work best without a hook-set. That is, once you get a bite, just load up the rod and hang-on. Seems like the effectiveness of your technique would be improved without any hookset. But then again, I've never tried this......
              When fishing circles for halibut, the hook is engulfed along with the bait. The only edge available will be the corner of the jaws from the inside out. If you wait for the fish to turn and swim away, the circle will naturally find that lone edge. If you set too early, the hook will simply be drawn out of the mouth.

              Watch the Moffitt video again for the discussion on whether or not it is OK to set. For flossing reds, setting the hook is just fine. The hook will only engage if it finds an edge. If the fish was flossed, it's fish on. If it wasn't, then you could set till the cows come home and you will get nothing. WHY? a circle will not engage without finding a solid edge. The only edge available is the broad one created by jaws closed around the leader.... and the hookup WILL be outside in. No edge, no hookup with circles.

              This is where the rippers can be prevented from unnecessarily wounding dozens of fish in pursuit of a legal daily limit. Ripping thru a school of reds with a J-hook will result in a snagged fish essentially every time. With a circle, it's virtually non-existent.
              "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
              sigpic
              The KeenEye MD

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              • #22
                I think I will try this out this red season. Thanks for the reminder.
                Anybody who truly believes the hook must be from the inside out should release any fish caught from the outside in.
                I am assuming if thats how you interpret the regulations then thats exactly what you must be doing right?
                I am of the belief it is in the mouth from inside out or outside in. Anywhere else even though it may be close to the mouth doesn't count.
                "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

                "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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                • #23
                  Seems the "hook set" with this method would be more of a snap than a full body whallop?

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                  • #24
                    Good post doc.
                    I came across some octopus-style circle hooks a few years ago and carried them around for a couple of season intending to try them at some point. I've believed for a while the concept it sound. Finally last year, on the last week of red fishing down on the Russian, I gave them a whirl to great results. I didn't see any decrease in the number of fish hooked - legally - and landed; though there was a definite decrease in foul hooked fish (I'm not a twitcher, but the hole I was fishing was packed with reds and incidental snagging occurred regardless with standard J hooks.) I'm a believer.

                    Originally posted by kasilofchrisn View Post
                    I am of the belief it is in the mouth from inside out or outside in. Anywhere else even though it may be close to the mouth doesn't count.
                    That's how I look at it. I could say that someone punched me in the mouth, but I wouldn't be implying they shrunk themselves down to 3 inches tall and climbed inside my mouth. The English language can be a tricky beast.
                    Pursue happiness with diligence.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Wyo2AK View Post
                      Good post doc.
                      I came across some octopus-style circle hooks a few years ago and carried them around for a couple of season intending to try them at some point. I've believed for a while the concept it sound.
                      The key to successfully using them for sockeye is to create the decidedly off-axis take-off of the leader from the hook eye.

                      The hookup rate will be an order of magnitude greater by using the straight eye circles like the Gami Nautilus as opposed to the up-eye Octopus circle.



                      The up-eye hooks can be "converted" into the correct configuration by threading a bead into your egg loop which causes the leader to correctly angle toward the hook point once you thread it back thru the eye.

                      Make sense?
                      "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
                      sigpic
                      The KeenEye MD

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                      • #26
                        The language is as simple as eliminating the word "in" just like in the trooper dispatch.

                        Here's a perfect example.

                        It is unlawful to snag any salmon in the Kenai River.
                        Snag (defn): To hook or attempt to hook a fish elsewhere than its mouth.
                        To hook or attempt to hook a fish in a location other than its mouth.

                        SIMPLE!
                        "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
                        sigpic
                        The KeenEye MD

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by fishNphysician View Post
                          The language is as simple as eliminating the word "in" just like in the trooper dispatch.

                          Here's a perfect example.

                          It is unlawful to snag any salmon in the Kenai River.
                          Snag (defn): To hook or attempt to hook a fish elsewhere than its mouth.
                          To hook or attempt to hook a fish in a location other than its mouth.

                          SIMPLE!
                          That sure would simplify things. I really can't see the harm either way as long as the hook is in the mouth regardless which way the point faces or how it went in.
                          I have caught a lot of fish that did strike and hit the lure of their own choosing such as when trolling in the lake or icefishing that had the hook outside in or even elsewhere in their body.
                          While fishing with a friend and his sister years ago for halibut she managed to lasso one around the tail. There was no hook marks anywhere in the fish. The line was wrapped around the tail and the circle hook was around the fishing line. This after watching her rod tip bounce just like a tipycal halibut bite. Fortunately it was a smaller Halibut. A big one would have put up a pretty good tussle hooked that way.
                          It does make you wonder for those who imply that the regs mean from the inside out if nobody was around and they caught it from the outside in would they keep the fish? I would guess most would. They might look around first and verify no one is looking but my guess is they would still add that fish to their stringer.
                          "The closer I get to nature the farther I am from idiots"

                          "Fishing and Hunting are only an addiction if you're trying to quit"

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                          • #28
                            THANKS DOC. I'm tying some up now, and will give it a try tomorrow.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Wyo2AK View Post
                              I could say that someone punched me in the mouth, but I wouldn't be implying they shrunk themselves down to 3 inches tall and climbed inside my mouth. The English language can be a tricky beast.
                              I think that is one of the funniest things i've read on this forum!!!

                              Doc, I was given some small circle hooks with the bent eye, what do you think of just straightening it?

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                              • #30
                                good thread. I use the octopus hooks with yarn pretty much exclusively. So the bent up eye still catches fish. I'm excited to try the staight eye though now. It makes a lot of sense. I know I do pretty good with the octopus and I bet Docs recomendation will increase the odds too.
                                As for the hook sets......I've found one isn't needed. I don't twitch or anything at the end of the drift. I just pull in my lose line for another flip and drift. Not to say the noon to 10 o'clock isn't where my hook ups mainly happen. It's just that when the circle hook gets there and it's sharp.......they are hooked. Usually it's just an explosion, and I start reeling.
                                I love catching reds on rod and reel.

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